VFD's & Line Reactors

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NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
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EC - retired
They are starting to appear in more than just industrial environments, I even have one at my house that runs the well pump, kind of marketed as a "constant pressure controller" but it is essentially a VFD.


I have a three phase house well, because I wanted to and my wife didn't care.

We have put them on a horse "walker", wells, fans, conveyors, augers. Some just because they needed three phase for that particular motor. All on farms. I am of the belief that some farms in this area are getting big enough that their "Ag" status is misleading. Another topic.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Inverter type compressors in AC, especially mini-splits, are becoming more common. But their operation is transparent to the users.
Some inverter type well pumps are particularly attractive for off grid people because they will run off DC input over a wide range of voltages and can efficiently throttle back their output to match the available power.
My drive for my well maybe would run off DC input, but probably would need to be within correct voltage range and not a wide range of input voltages. The main reason I installed it is because of its soft starting, I have been going through pumps like crazy, and every one of them fails because the splines on the motor shaft get sheared from starting @ full voltage and torque. Put the new drive on after the last pump failure in hopes this spline shearing will not happen so frequently, and it does give much better constant pressure control over a diaphragm actuated pressure switch with 10 - 20 PSI differential between starting and stopping also.

I have a three phase house well, because I wanted to and my wife didn't care.

We have put them on a horse "walker", wells, fans, conveyors, augers. Some just because they needed three phase for that particular motor. All on farms. I am of the belief that some farms in this area are getting big enough that their "Ag" status is misleading. Another topic.
I won't argue with that. I used to work in dairy barns that only could milk 4-8 cows at once and were only supplied by a 60 amp 120/240 single phase feed. Now I have one I do work in that milks 24-36 cows at once and has a 800 amp 480 volt three phase supply. Looks like an industrial plant compared to the older version.

Grain storage bins? Many sites anymore are large enough and consuming enough power that going with three phase is almost a must, and 480 volt three phase is often a smart choice. Used to be just a few small motors that could squeak by if they had to on the general farm 120/240 single phase service, but now they are serious power users and you better think hard before committing to 120/240 single phase as the supply, if you even have that as a choice. With bigger harvesting equipment comes the need for bigger conveyors or else the bigger harvesting equipment is too fast and will have to wait for the storage facility to be able to unload if the storage facility doesn't also have increased capacity equipment.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
My drive for my well maybe would run off DC input, but probably would need to be within correct voltage range and not a wide range of input voltages. The main reason I installed it is because of its soft starting, I have been going through pumps like crazy, and every one of them fails because the splines on the motor shaft get sheared from starting @ full voltage and torque. Put the new drive on after the last pump failure in hopes this spline shearing will not happen so frequently, and it does give much better constant pressure control over a diaphragm actuated pressure switch with 10 - 20 PSI differential between starting and stopping also.

I won't argue with that. I used to work in dairy barns that only could milk 4-8 cows at once and were only supplied by a 60 amp 120/240 single phase feed. Now I have one I do work in that milks 24-36 cows at once and has a 800 amp 480 volt three phase supply. Looks like an industrial plant compared to the older version.

Grain storage bins? Many sites anymore are large enough and consuming enough power that going with three phase is almost a must, and 480 volt three phase is often a smart choice. Used to be just a few small motors that could squeak by if they had to on the general farm 120/240 single phase service, but now they are serious power users and you better think hard before committing to 120/240 single phase as the supply, if you even have that as a choice. With bigger harvesting equipment comes the need for bigger conveyors or else the bigger harvesting equipment is too fast and will have to wait for the storage facility to be able to unload if the storage facility doesn't also have increased capacity equipment.


Vicious circle.:D$$$:D
 
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SceneryDriver

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Electrical and Automation Designer
I recorded the highest and lowest values in the trend:
Spike peak: 517v
Spike dip: 407v

For all 6 of them to trip simultaniously, I am now thinking it must most defintely be an issue with the power supplying them that is causing the DCBUS overvoltage.

That spike of 517v is probably what's doing it. The cap bank switching in (did I read that right, yes?) is probably doing it. Higher incoming AC voltage leads to higher DC bus voltage, thus your DC bus overvoltage trip. A line reactor, placed before the drives will probably help, but at a cost; a "5%" reactor is designed to drop 5% of the voltage at its full-load amp rating. That means your drive will now have 5% less voltage to work with on the incoming side. This may or may not be a problem; if your incoming voltage is already on the low side (other than the spikes) your drives may now trip on undervoltage.

I'd recommend braking resistors be fitted to the drives. The braking chopper resistor will dump excess DC bus energy to the resistor for the short time that the voltage peaks, without dropping the voltage to the drives while running. I'd still be slightly concerned about the spikes eventually damaging the input rectifiers on the drives, but that could be mitigated by the use of a TVSS (surge suppressor).

jaref is correct about "flying restart" or whatever your drive manufacturer calls it. Enabling that setting will allow the drive to successfully catch a spinning load without tripping.


SceneryDriver
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
No argument from me. I was actually meaning "the same" in that of the two things that a line reactor can provide, only the harmonic mitigation benefits are offered by the choke. I suppose I should have added "albeit better".
It's OK.
Call me a pedant. I won't take umbridge.............:D
 

ControlsEng

New User
Location
Orange, CA
3 Settings

3 Settings

DC Bus Overvoltage Faults are usually caused by motor regeneration/braking.

Symptom 1-
"
we constantly get slight power blips and anomolies that cause the VFDs to trip on a "DCBUS Overvoltage" fault"
Lets temporarily ignore this statement because this is an assumption. Not a bad one but a guess nonetheless. I saw no evidence, yet, that indicated there was a utility/supply problem.

My biggest question is this: When you command the VFDs to STOP, do the fans need to come to a quick and controlled stop (braking) or can they simply coast to a stop (like most fans do)?

If there is no need to BRAKE the fans then you need to set the "Stop Mode" VFD parameter to "Coast to Stop". There is no reason for it to be anything else.
Next I would definitely set the "Flying Start" parameter to "Enabled". No reason for it to be off. No reason for the VFD to care whether its stopped or spinning before it restarts. (on a fan)




Symptom 2:
-If there is ANY slight blip in power. Usually occurs when its windy, these VFD's are the first to trip but everything else stays running."[/QUOTE]
This says that the wind is trying to move the fans faster or slower then the VFD is commanding them to go.
If the wind tries to slow the fan down the VFD applies more power and spins the fans back up to speed: No problem there.
If the wind tries to speed the fan up then the VDF must SLOW or BRAKE the fan: This is the PROBLEM.

When BRAKING the VFD must dissipate the extra energy. This is dissipated as heat (on the vfds in question). The VFD can only dissipate so much past which the DC Bus voltage rises.
For symptom #2 you need braking resistors. They will dissipate the extra energy that the VFD alone cannot currently handle when slowing a high inertia load.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
DC Bus Overvoltage Faults are usually caused by motor regeneration/braking.

Symptom 1-
" Lets temporarily ignore this statement because this is an assumption. Not a bad one but a guess nonetheless. I saw no evidence, yet, that indicated there was a utility/supply problem.

My biggest question is this: When you command the VFDs to STOP, do the fans need to come to a quick and controlled stop (braking) or can they simply coast to a stop (like most fans do)?

If there is no need to BRAKE the fans then you need to set the "Stop Mode" VFD parameter to "Coast to Stop". There is no reason for it to be anything else.
Next I would definitely set the "Flying Start" parameter to "Enabled". No reason for it to be off. No reason for the VFD to care whether its stopped or spinning before it restarts. (on a fan)




Symptom 2:
-If there is ANY slight blip in power. Usually occurs when its windy, these VFD's are the first to trip but everything else stays running."
This says that the wind is trying to move the fans faster or slower then the VFD is commanding them to go.
If the wind tries to slow the fan down the VFD applies more power and spins the fans back up to speed: No problem there.
If the wind tries to speed the fan up then the VDF must SLOW or BRAKE the fan: This is the PROBLEM.

When BRAKING the VFD must dissipate the extra energy. This is dissipated as heat (on the vfds in question). The VFD can only dissipate so much past which the DC Bus voltage rises.
For symptom #2 you need braking resistors. They will dissipate the extra energy that the VFD alone cannot currently handle when slowing a high inertia load.[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree with most of what you said, but I also will give credit to the OP that he likely knows there is incoming power supply problems occurring. This could easily be observed by light flicker, or other loads cycling, or electrically held control circuits dropping out. If the tripping VFD's were the only symptom, he may be asking his question a little differently if he doesn't know there is a problem with incoming power.

I also don't disagree with your theory of the wind speeding up/slowing down the fan, but have to question just how likely this is to happen on a severe enough level that it trips the drive. What is a windy day? Some places that may mean anything over 10 mph winds. Other places though they do have calm days, 10 mph is pretty usual and not considered "windy". Some even get 25 mph winds and may consider that to be somewhat normal, but do acknowledge it is not calm winds either. Something tells me these fans need to see at least 20-25 mph gusts before it will have much impact on the drive's ability to maintain output speed, particularly when it is trying to increase fan speed and even then it needs to hit the fan from the right direction - nearly straight into the fan inlet, or it will not have such direct impact.

If the wind is blowing POCO lines get to swinging around and eventually connections do loosen up and can easily cause the kind of blips the OP is discussing. Most of routine maintenance by rural power companies is repairing things damaged by wind, most of it just things that happen over time. Go out on some of the days we have had the past couple months with the wind blowing over 30 mph and watch those lines whip around and it is amazing they don't fail more often than they do.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
This says that the wind is trying to move the fans faster or slower then the VFD is commanding them to go.
If the wind tries to slow the fan down the VFD applies more power and spins the fans back up to speed: No problem there.
If the wind tries to speed the fan up then the VDF must SLOW or BRAKE the fan: This is the PROBLEM.
Think that possibility was postulated in post #3

When BRAKING the VFD must dissipate the extra energy. This is dissipated as heat (on the vfds in question). The VFD can only dissipate so much past which the DC Bus voltage rises.
Any regen from from the load side will charge the DC bus capacitor.
There is no mechanism within the IGBT inverter bridge to dissipate this energy.
 
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winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Any regen from from the load side will charge the DC bus capacitor.
There is no mechanism within the IGBT inverter bridge to dissipate this energy.

Well, no _sane_ mechanism, and usually the capacitors pop before the IGBTs, so the energy gets dissipated there....

More realistically, with no brake resistor and no line regen capacity, there is still one reasonable (for short periods of time) place to 'dispose' of excess regen energy: in the motor, by operating it less efficiently. For example, if you need to stop the motor quickly you can use DC braking or even 'plug' the motor with reverse rotation AC. This is likely not as fast as proper regenerative braking, but you won't suffer from regen without a place to put the energy.

If the problem is being caused by wind causing the fans to overhaul the motor, then is there any way to set the VFD to simply stop trying to brake the fans? In other words, drive only if torque > 0 at target speed, free wheel if torque is < 0. If the wind is moving sufficient air without the fans blowing, then why drive the fans?

-Jon
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by kwired This says that the wind is trying to move the fans faster or slower then the VFD is commanding them to go.
If the wind tries to slow the fan down the VFD applies more power and spins the fans back up to speed: No problem there.
If the wind tries to speed the fan up then the VDF must SLOW or BRAKE the fan: This is the PROBLEM.



Think that possibility was postulated in post #3


quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by kwired
When BRAKING the VFD must dissipate the extra energy. This is dissipated as heat (on the vfds in question). The VFD can only dissipate so much past which the DC Bus voltage rises.



Any regen from from the load side will charge the DC bus capacitor.
There is no mechanism within the IGBT inverter bridge to dissipate this energy.

Just want to make it clear that those quotes were not my words, somehow did not end up as quoted material in my earlier post though.
 
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