receptacles near non residential sinks

[mshields]

In Mike Holt's illustrated changes to the code, he makes the point that the requirements of 210, 8, A, (7) (residential sinks other than kitchen sinks) that the requirement for GFCI is for within "an arc measurement" of 6 feet from the edge of a sink. The actual requirement does not use the words "arc measurement" but lets assume that the interpretation is correct.

Now if you go to 210, 8, B, (5), sort of the counterpart to the above paragraph but for "Other Than Dwelling Units", Mike does not include this explanation. What's more, the code handbook shows an example of a receptacle within 6 feet and above the counter, making no special effort to clarify that this would include anything under the counter, a distinction you'd think the handbook would be more prone to make given it's higher risk of confusion.

So - a) is Mike's interpretation for the first paragraph correct and if so, based on what verbiage actually in the code. and b) if the first paragraph applies to an arc measurement of 6 feet, would not this second paragraph which is, by the way, exactly the same in the code also apply to a 6 foot arc measured range, thereby requiring receptacles below the counter and within 6 feet to be GFCI?

 

[charlie b]

I don't have Mike's book, so I can't comment on any illustration it might contain. I only have the 2011 handbook, and I don't know which version you have, so I can't tell if it has the same illustrations. I can say that I don't believe that the phrase "within an arc measurement" will accurately capture the requirement. The rule says six feet from the outside edge of the sink. An edge is a line segment, not a point, so you can't draw a circle around one point and capture the entire area of interest. What you would have to do is draw an infinite number of circles, each with a six foot radius, each centered around one specific point along the edge. I am confident you can picture the result. It will mostly resemble a box that surrounds the sink, with a bit if curvature outside the corners of the sink.

From a practical perspective, much of the area enclosed by these infinite circles will lie upon the middle of the countertop, or will be in open space in front of the sink, and receptacles are not likely to be installed in such locations. So again from a practical perspective, a straight line along the back wall where the sink is installed will capture most of the receptacles of interest. However, there could be a sink within a "butler's pantry," a space that is kind of like a narrow hallway with storage shelves for dishes, and there could be a receptacle on the wall opposite to the sink. If it is within six feet of the "front edge" of the sink, then it needs GFCI protection.

As to receptacles below the counter, I tend to say that they are not covered by this rule. My interpretation is that you hold a six foot long string at any point along the edge of the sink, and see if that string can reach the receptacle. Since the string will have to lie along the countertop for some distance, then drop down to the level of the receptacle, then run back to the back wall, it usually won't reach. In other words, I do not interpret the "within six feet" words as meaning with a sphere with a six foot radius.

 

[GoldDigger]

The difference between arc length and string length.....

Tapatalk!

 

[jxofaltrds]

I don't have Mike's book, so I can't comment on any illustration it might contain. I only have the 2011 handbook, and I don't know which version you have, so I can't tell if it has the same illustrations. I can say that I don't believe that the phrase "within an arc measurement" will accurately capture the requirement. The rule says six feet from the outside edge of the sink. An edge is a line segment, not a point, so you can't draw a circle around one point and capture the entire area of interest. What you would have to do is draw an infinite number of circles, each with a six foot radius, each centered around one specific point along the edge. I am confident you can picture the result. It will mostly resemble a box that surrounds the sink, with a bit if curvature outside the corners of the sink.

From a practical perspective, much of the area enclosed by these infinite circles will lie upon the middle of the countertop, or will be in open space in front of the sink, and receptacles are not likely to be installed in such locations. So again from a practical perspective, a straight line along the back wall where the sink is installed will capture most of the receptacles of interest. However, there could be a sink within a "butler's pantry," a space that is kind of like a narrow hallway with storage shelves for dishes, and there could be a receptacle on the wall opposite to the sink. If it is within six feet of the "front edge" (outside edge) of the sink, then it needs GFCI protection.

As to receptacles below the counter, I tend to say that they are not covered by this rule. My interpretation is that you hold a six foot long string at any point along the edge of the sink, and see if that string can reach the receptacle. Since the string will have to lie along the countertop for some distance, then drop down to the level of the receptacle, then run back to the back wall, it usually won't reach. In other words, I do not interpret the "within six feet" words as meaning with a sphere with a six foot radius.

I think that it is a sphere. That said I think that the sphere can be 'broken' by objects. Cabinets, door, walls, stairs and maybe other objects. I would like you use a 'string' but here is what trips me up. I could have a receptacle just under the counter top not able to be touched by a straight line but still required to be GFCI protected.

Maybe if we used a 6' cord plugged in and could touch the edge of the sink? Not including opening cabinet doors, etc.

What if it is an under mount sink????? :slaphead:

 

[JDBrown]

I think that it is a sphere. That said I think that the sphere can be 'broken' by objects. Cabinets, door, walls, stairs and maybe other objects. I would like you use a 'string' but here is what trips me up. I could have a receptacle just under the counter top not able to be touched by a straight line but still required to be GFCI protected.

Maybe if we used a 6' cord plugged in and could touch the edge of the sink? Not including opening cabinet doors, etc.

What if it is an under mount sink????? :slaphead:

We've always been required to provide GFCI protection for a garbage disposal receptacle in a commercial setting. But that's the City of LA and they tend to be pretty strict, so YMMV.

Interestingly, the exact same installation very clearly does NOT require GFCI in a residential kitchen, since 210.8(A)(7) is for residential sinks other than kitchen sinks. I wonder if this was intentional or not.

 

[charlie b]

I think we all recognize that the whole idea is to prevent someone from dropping an electrical appliance into a sink while the apopliance is plugged in with its six foot cord, and thereby receiving a shock. If a plugged in appliance can reach the sink, the receptacle should have GFCI protection. The essential question, therefore, is whether the words, as written, convey this intent. I think they do. It does not say "six feet in a straight line" or "within a six foot radius" or "within a six foot sphere regardless of intervening obstacles." It just says "within six feet." So if I were to try to verify whether the receptacle was within six feet, I would ask my "helper" (i.e., my wife, but don't let her see this thread :happyno: ) to hold the end of the tape measure at the edge of the sink, and I would roll out the tape until it reaches the receptacle. If in order to reach, I have to open the cabinet door, so be it.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I think we all recognize that the whole idea is to prevent someone from dropping an electrical appliance into a sink while the apopliance is plugged in with its six foot cord, and thereby receiving a shock. If a plugged in appliance can reach the sink, the receptacle should have GFCI protection. The essential question, therefore, is whether the words, as written, convey this intent. I think they do. It does not say "six feet in a straight line" or "within a six foot radius" or "within a six foot sphere regardless of intervening obstacles." It just says "within six feet." So if I were to try to verify whether the receptacle was within six feet, I would ask my "helper" (i.e., my wife, but don't let her see this thread :happyno: ) to hold the end of the tape measure at the edge of the sink, and I would roll out the tape until it reaches the receptacle. If in order to reach, I have to open the cabinet door, so be it.

Fair enough. Would you require the micro, if within 6', to be GFCI protected?

I'll back off my obstacles if we can agree, and it appears to be written as such, within 6' means sphere.

 

[Smart $]

Fair enough. Would you require the micro, if within 6', to be GFCI protected?

I'll back off my obstacles if we can agree, and it appears to be written as such, within 6' means sphere.

The problem with discounting any obstacles is GFCI protection would be required for a receptacle within 6' of the sink and on the other side of a floor-to-ceiling wall.

BTW, 6' is the radial length, so it'd be closer to a 12' sphere... and there'd be bulges to compensate for the sink volume.

 

[kwired]

The problem with discounting any obstacles is GFCI protection would be required for a receptacle within 6' of the sink and on the other side of a floor-to-ceiling wall.

I have to agree with that. Who knows what the other side of the wall may be and really has no meaning that there is a sink on the other side. Could be a bedroom, bathroom, garage, living room, entirely different occupancy...

 

[jim dungar]

I think we all recognize that the whole idea is to prevent someone from dropping an electrical appliance into a sink while the apopliance is plugged in with its six foot cord, and thereby receiving a shock.

Counter top appliance cords are only 2' long.

I believe the reason has to do the typical arm span between wet metal plumbing (which are likely bonded to the serive) and appliance surfaces which may be come energized due to faulty 2-wire cords.

I like the idea of a 'six foot string' as a test for meeting the intent.

 

[Smart $]

Counter top appliance cords are only 2' long.

...

The sink of reference may not be mounted in a counter or be anywhere near one. Could be a free-standing sink.

 

[jim dungar]

The sink of reference may not be mounted in a counter or be anywhere near one. Could be a free-standing sink.

So?
My distance comment was in response to the quote from Charlie.

Location of the sink has nothing to do with my belief that the 6' distance is related more to a person's reach than it is to a device falling into the sink.

 

[kwired]

So?
My distance comment was in response to the quote from Charlie.

Location of the sink has nothing to do with my belief that the 6' distance is related more to a person's reach than it is to a device falling into the sink.

Maybe so, but place a receptacle 6 feet from the sink, plug an appliance with a two foot cord in it and you are down to 4 feet less the appliance dimension away from the sink. A larger counter top appliance may only be 3 feet from the sink while plugged in, or even less depending on it's physical size.

 

[Smart $]

So?
My distance comment was in response to the quote from Charlie.

And Charlie said an appliance with a 6' cord. Not all appliances are countertop appliances and many come with a 6' cord.

Location of the sink has nothing to do with my belief that the 6' distance is related more to a person's reach than it is to a device falling into the sink.

Seems that statement is a bit self contradictory, but I get the gist of it. You are certainly entitled to your belief, and I certainly cannot dispute it. In some respects I agree, as it has more to do with the convenience of the receptacle location, as nothing prevents the use of an extension cord.

 

[kwired]

And Charlie said an appliance with a 6' cord. Not all appliances are countertop appliances and many come with a 6' cord.


Seems that statement is a bit self contradictory, but I get the gist of it. You are certainly entitled to your belief, and I certainly cannot dispute it. In some respects I agree, as it has more to do with the convenience of the receptacle location, as nothing prevents the use of an extension cord.

Some appliances have longer than 6 foot cord also, many vacuum cleaners have 25-30 foot cords. Better GFCI protect adjacent rooms just in case, small apartment - GFCI everything.