404.2 (C)

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m sleem

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If i'm not using a GFCI as well as i'm not committed to UL, do you think the neutral wire at the lighting switch is still required?
 

augie47

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Since 404.2 does not directly address UL or GFCIs and certainly doesn't mention either in an exception, I'd say as long as your installation is governed by the NEC, the requirement stands.
 

Dennis Alwon

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The use of items such as, occupancy sensors and electronic dimmers have been the main reason for the requirement of a neutral at a switch
 

m sleem

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UL is not in charge of the NEC.

There is no requirement in the NEC for any product to be listed by UL.
As i've seen in a previous thread, the neutral wire was required by UL where they prevent the use of the grounding conductor rather than the grounded conductor particulary for the sensors.
 

augie47

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I have not reviewed the ROPs and ROCs, and the Code change may have been related to a UL change in Standards on such devices, but UL can not directly institute a NEC requirement. My opinion that it is never a good idea to impose any intentional current flow on the grounding conductor. In addition, AFCI's, which are becoming more prevalent, also monitor for ground-faults (not to the 5ma level of a GFCI), but in-balances caused by current flow to the grounding conductor will effect AFCIs also (all those small currents will add up)
 

don_resqcapt19

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As i've seen in a previous thread, the neutral wire was required by UL where they prevent the use of the grounding conductor rather than the grounded conductor particulary for the sensors.
Not exactly. The UL standard permitted the electronic switches, such as occupancy sensors to use the equipment grounding conductor as the grounded conductor for the power to the electronics in the occupancy sensors and similar devices. They limited the current on the EGC to 0.5ma per device, but that is still an unexpected shock hazard when someone is working on the EGC, and in addition the current is additive.

It is my understanding that the NFPA was told the standard would not be changed to prohibit the EGC from being used as the grounded conductor unless the code was changed to require the grounded conductor at switch locations. The code has been changed, but I am not sure if the UL standards have been.

However, just because you don't like the rule doesn't mean that you don't have to comply with. It is the code.
 

m sleem

Senior Member
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Not exactly. The UL standard permitted the electronic switches, such as occupancy sensors to use the equipment grounding conductor as the grounded conductor for the power to the electronics in the occupancy sensors and similar devices. They limited the current on the EGC to 0.5ma per device, but that is still an unexpected shock hazard when someone is working on the EGC, and in addition the current is additive.

It is my understanding that the NFPA was told the standard would not be changed to prohibit the EGC from being used as the grounded conductor unless the code was changed to require the grounded conductor at switch locations. The code has been changed, but I am not sure if the UL standards have been.

However, just because you don't like the rule doesn't mean that you don't have to comply with. It is the code.
I agree with you & with Augie for the concerns result of the grounding faults hazards, but there is an informational note recommends addition for the future & one of the posts says it's required for the future, why?
 

Smart $

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Ohio
I agree with you & with Augie for the concerns result of the grounding faults hazards, but there is an informational note recommends addition for the future & one of the posts says it's required for the future, why?
In future, switch may be changed to one needing power (e.g. an electronically-controlled device such as an occupancy sensor or dimmer). BTW, it's not required if the neutral can be added in the future without requiring structural demo and repair.
 

m sleem

Senior Member
Location
Cairo
In future, switch may be changed to one needing power (e.g. an electronically-controlled device such as an occupancy sensor or dimmer). BTW, it's not required if the neutral can be added in the future without requiring structural demo and repair.
Does it mean, for the initial wiring i can install the sensors without providing a neutral as long as the conduit fits for more wires & in case of the presence of the grounding faults the neutral should be provided?
 

ActionDave

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Does it mean, for the initial wiring i can install the sensors without providing a neutral as long as the conduit fits for more wires & in case of the presence of the grounding faults the neutral should be provided?
No. It means you don't have to provide a neutral if you don't need one, ie. not using sensors but rather a single pole switch, as long as you can add one later.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Right, but this explains the informational note not the exception.
Look at it this way. The code requires you to provide the grounded conductor at the switch location at the time the switch box is installed only if it would be difficult to install the grounded conductor at a later date. The methods permitted in the exception, to install a grounded conductor at a future time, are not difficult.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Does it mean, for the initial wiring i can install the sensors without providing a neutral
Not if the sensor or other device being installed requires a grounded conductor.
... as long as the conduit fits for more wires & in case of the presence of the grounding faults the neutral should be provided?
I am not sure what you mean about "grounding faults". This rule has nothing to do with faults of any type. It is just a requirement to provide easy access to a grounded conductor for devices that require a grounded conductor.
 

jxofaltrds

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Not exactly. The UL standard permitted the electronic switches, such as occupancy sensors to use the equipment grounding conductor as the grounded conductor for the power to the electronics in the occupancy sensors and similar devices. They limited the current on the EGC to 0.5ma per device, but that is still an unexpected shock hazard when someone is working on the EGC, and in addition the current is additive.

It is my understanding that the NFPA was told the standard would not be changed to prohibit the EGC from being used as the grounded conductor unless the code was changed to require the grounded conductor at switch locations. The code has been changed, but I am not sure if the UL standards have been.

However, just because you don't like the rule doesn't mean that you don't have to comply with. It is the code.

Was this an isolated EGC installation? If not if the EGC was tied to other EGCs you have 'bonded' a grounded conductor past the main disconnect.

It is my understanding that when two codes (codified) conflict the more stringent applies. So I don't care what UL says if it is against the NEC.

Grounding Conductor, Equipment (EGC). The conductive
path(s) installed to connect normally non?current-carrying
metal parts of equipment together and to the system grounded
conductor or to the grounding electrode conductor, or both.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Was this an isolated EGC installation? If not if the EGC was tied to other EGCs you have 'bonded' a grounded conductor past the main disconnect. ...
Theses devices, that are listed, use the EGC as a grounded conductor to provide power to the internal electronics per the listing standard.

I don't agree that the use of the EGC in place of a grounded conductor creates an additional grounded to grounding bond. It is just simply using the EGC for a purpose that it is not intended to be used for. That being said, there is no specific wording in the NEC that says you can't use an EGC as a grounded conductor.
 

jxofaltrds

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Theses devices, that are listed, use the EGC as a grounded conductor to provide power to the internal electronics per the listing standard.

I don't agree that the use of the EGC in place of a grounded conductor creates an additional grounded to grounding bond. It is just simply using the EGC for a purpose that it is not intended to be used for. That being said, there is no specific wording in the NEC that says you can't use an EGC as a grounded conductor.

200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor
of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by one of
the following means:
(1) A continuous white outer finish.
(2) A continuous gray outer finish.
(3) Three continuous white stripes along the conductor?s
entire length on other than green insulation.
(4) Wires that have their outer covering finished to show a
white or gray color but have colored tracer threads in
the braid identifying the source of manufacture shall be
considered as meeting the provisions of this section.

That pretty much eliminates the EGC. Correct?
 

don_resqcapt19

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200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor
of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by one of
the following means:
(1) A continuous white outer finish.
(2) A continuous gray outer finish.
(3) Three continuous white stripes along the conductor?s
entire length on other than green insulation.
(4) Wires that have their outer covering finished to show a
white or gray color but have colored tracer threads in
the braid identifying the source of manufacture shall be
considered as meeting the provisions of this section.

That pretty much eliminates the EGC. Correct?
That would be an identification violation.

There is no specific rule in the NEC that says you can't use the EGC as a grounded conductor. I know that it is not a good idea and it is the intent of the code to not permit that, but there is no specific wording that says that.
 
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