Dual Function AFCI/GFCI Circuit Breakers

[sandsnow]

They have arrived.
Got an email from UL
Quote:
Ever since the 2014 NEC was published, contractors and inspectors have been asking when a dual function AFCI/GFCI circuit breaker will be available. Square D now has them on the market in both QO and Homeline versions.
The QO version is available with either a pigtail neutral or a plug-on neutral. I am told that the average cost to a contractor will be about $5 more than a comparable combination AFCI circuit breaker would cost. Some info about these new dual function circuit breakers is attached. (Link is equivalent to what was attached)


http://www.schneider-electric.us/un...uare_d_qo_and_homeline_dual_function_circ.xml

 

[GoldDigger]

I see Schneider has a sense of humor: "...in the unlikely event a trip should occur...." it has a built in diagnostic trip cause indicator.

Tapatalk!

 

[jxofaltrds]

They have arrived.
Got an email from UL
Quote:
Ever since the 2014 NEC was published, contractors and inspectors have been asking when a dual function AFCI/GFCI circuit breaker will be available. Square D now has them on the market in both QO and Homeline versions.
The QO version is available with either a pigtail neutral or a plug-on neutral. I am told that the average cost to a contractor will be about $5 more than a comparable combination AFCI circuit breaker would cost. Some info about these new dual function circuit breakers is attached. (Link is equivalent to what was attached)


http://www.schneider-electric.us/un...uare_d_qo_and_homeline_dual_function_circ.xml

TY.

 

[Riograndeelectric]

Square D does not say what type of GFI it is. Is it a 30ma or 5ma GFI?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Square D does not say what type of GFI it is. Is it a 30ma or 5ma GFI?

Good point. Someone may think that this fixes the GFCI and AFCI section of replacements of non-grounding type receptacles. 406

Also:

(b) A non?grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter type
of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked
?No Equipment Ground.? An equipment grounding conductor
shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuitinterrupter-
type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the
ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.

 

[electric_cal]

I see Schneider has a sense of humor: "...in the unlikely event a trip should occur...." it has a built in diagnostic trip cause indicator.

Tapatalk!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[mwm1752]

I was making a new thread while this was entered -- great minds think alike

 

[texie]

Square D does not say what type of GFI it is. Is it a 30ma or 5ma GFI?

It seems that the press release is poorly written as it says "ground fault protection" as opposed to GFCI. But I feel certain that the whole point of this product is to provide combo GFCI and AFCI due to the coming new requirements. The fact that some existing designs of AFCI happen to include some form of GF protection would also lead me to believe this is the case that this is a GFCI product.

 

[jaylectricity]

I'm disappointed that it is Square D that is doing this. I suppose the Homeline breakers will completely cover the neutral bar now.

 

[jim dungar]

It seems that the press release is poorly written as it says "ground fault protection" as opposed to GFCI. But I feel certain that the whole point of this product is to provide combo GFCI and AFCI due to the coming new requirements. The fact that some existing designs of AFCI happen to include some form of GF protection would also lead me to believe this is the case that this is a GFCI product.

Follow the links to the product website.
http://www.schneider-electric.com/p...kers/62274-qo-dual-function-circuit-breakers/

The Dual Function Circuit Breaker offers superior electrical safety for homeowners by combining Combination Arc Fault and Ground Fault (class A) protection

 

[curt swartz]

I'm disappointed that it is Square D that is doing this. I suppose the Homeline breakers will completely cover the neutral bar now.

They do now without the GFCI protection. I do everything I can to avoid Square D AFCI's. I don't know why they can't shrink the breakers down to the same size as standard breakers. Siemens, Cutler Hammer (BR) and GE managed to do it. As it is now, not only is the neutral buss compleetely covered but there is no room for other wires to pass by the breaker. You also can not access the neutral screw on the breaker without removing the breaker from the buss. They either need to shrink the breakers or start making the boxes 18" wide.

 

[delectric123]

They do now without the GFCI protection. I do everything I can to avoid Square D AFCI's. I don't know why they can't shrink the breakers down to the same size as standard breakers. Siemens, Cutler Hammer (BR) and GE managed to do it. As it is now, not only is the neutral buss compleetely covered but there is no room for other wires to pass by the breaker. You also can not access the neutral screw on the breaker without removing the breaker from the buss. They either need to shrink the breakers or start making the boxes 18" wide.

even with these panels?

http://www.schneider-electric.com/p...ential/62053-qo-plug-on-neutral-load-centers/

 

[jaylectricity]

They do now without the GFCI protection. I do everything I can to avoid Square D AFCI's. I don't know why they can't shrink the breakers down to the same size as standard breakers. Siemens, Cutler Hammer (BR) and GE managed to do it. As it is now, not only is the neutral buss compleetely covered but there is no room for other wires to pass by the breaker. You also can not access the neutral screw on the breaker without removing the breaker from the buss. They either need to shrink the breakers or start making the boxes 18" wide.

When I first got serious about this trade I was trained to swear by Homeline breakers because they fit every panel. But then there was the big push to make sure breakers were listed for the panel you were installing them in...then the arc-fault requirement came in. I'm mostly a Murray/Siemens guy now.

even with these panels?

http://www.schneider-electric.com/p...ential/62053-qo-plug-on-neutral-load-centers/

QO is great for necessary compact spaces...but then again, the boxes are so small that it creates another problem. Sure, if it's a new install and you're the initial installer it's fine...but after that it becomes a big clustermess.

 

[RLyons]

I'm disappointed that it is Square D that is doing this. I suppose the Homeline breakers will completely cover the neutral bar now.

My current work around for this is to put the Arc's starting at the bottom of the panel.

 

[John120/240]

With the Sq D " Plug On Neutral" breakers only the load neutral lands on the breaker. Haven't used one yet but putting your arc faults at the top makes more sense to me. IMHO

 

[kwired]

With the Sq D " Plug On Neutral" breakers only the load neutral lands on the breaker. Haven't used one yet but putting your arc faults at the top makes more sense to me. IMHO

AFAIK the plug on neutral is only available in the QO series. Covering the neutral bus is not a problem in the QO panels as it doesn't run along the breaker foot rails like it does in the Homeline series.

 

[kwired]

Also beware with the plug on neutral, there are now two kinds of AFCI's/GFCI's. Those with the plug on neutral and those with a pigtail neutral. Pigtail neutral works in either panel, but plug on neurtal only works in panel with the plug on neutral bus.

 

[mwm1752]

They do now without the GFCI protection. I do everything I can to avoid Square D AFCI's. I don't know why they can't shrink the breakers down to the same size as standard breakers. Siemens, Cutler Hammer (BR) and GE managed to do it. As it is now, not only is the neutral buss compleetely covered but there is no room for other wires to pass by the breaker. You also can not access the neutral screw on the breaker without removing the breaker from the buss. They either need to shrink the breakers or start making the boxes 18" wide.

Sq D being the first I've seen to come up with a combo breaker like this would still seem more convienient & cost effective when the 2014 code is adopted. Unless you would rather buy a breaker and recept both mounted readily accessible to achieve the same goal. Or hopefully the other brands follow suit so that there will be choice.

 

[kwired]

Sq D being the first I've seen to come up with a combo breaker like this would still seem more convienient & cost effective when the 2014 code is adopted. Unless you would rather buy a breaker and recept both mounted readily accessible to achieve the same goal. Or hopefully the other brands follow suit so that there will be choice.

That may be a judgement call - and on a case by case basis.

How much does the combo breaker cost?

The ability to have GFCI and AFCI protection has not been a problem before, just use a GFCI receptacle. GFCI breakers were usually cost prohibitive compared to GFCI receptacles, though that could change depending on the price of this combo, and considering you would have needed to fork over some cash for an AFCI breaker anyway in the past.

 

[mwm1752]

That may be a judgement call - and on a case by case basis.

How much does the combo breaker cost?

The ability to have GFCI and AFCI protection has not been a problem before, just use a GFCI receptacle. GFCI breakers were usually cost prohibitive compared to GFCI receptacles, though that could change depending on the price of this combo, and considering you would have needed to fork over some cash for an AFCI breaker anyway in the past.

The email I was sent from UL made claim to no more than $5 -- I agree it is a judgement call just thought it was a little trivial about the grounded buss. Consider the cost of installing the box, wire, recept, time in order not to deal with a single wire attachment to the breaker.