Built in cabinets and 210.52 required dwelling unit receptacle outlets

[Dugswork]

I was doing a couple of estimates recently and it seems it is popular to add built in bookcases,cabinets,wine cabinets to rooms in this area. If I am wiring an unfinished basement with a cabinet occupying one side of a room from the floor up to about 3 feet would I be required to treat the top of the cabinet as a countertop as in 210.52 (C) ??

I am planning it that way but I wondered if there were situations where you could have a built in cabinet in a room not classified as a "kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units" and just have no outlets along that wall. Some cost cutting customers I have done {not accepted !} estimates for try to infer I am adding unnecessary stuff.

I would suppose not but thanks for anyone who might have run into this.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I was doing a couple of estimates recently and it seems it is popular to add built in bookcases,cabinets,wine cabinets to rooms in this area. If I am wiring an unfinished basement with a cabinet occupying one side of a room from the floor up to about 3 feet would I be required to treat the top of the cabinet as a countertop as in 210.52 (C) ??

I am planning it that way but I wondered if there were situations where you could have a built in cabinet in a room not classified as a "kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units" and just have no outlets along that wall. Some cost cutting customers I have done {not accepted !} estimates for try to infer I am adding unnecessary stuff.

I would suppose not but thanks for anyone who might have run into this.

(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall
include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including
space measured around corners) and unbroken along
the floor line by doorways and similar openings, fireplaces,
and fixed cabinets

fixed cabinets new to 2011 NEC

 

[darekelec]

I asked Mike Holt during his webinar if he could explain the height, width or structure of cabinets that do not require receptacles per 210.52 and he responded;
90.4

One time I had a whole library made with custom cabinetry. Then what?

 

[david]

If I am wiring an unfinished basement with a cabinet occupying one side of a room from the floor up to about 3 feet would I be required to treat the top of the cabinet as a countertop as in 210.52 (C) ??

If these are storage cabinets in unfinished basements as I am reading your post. I do not know of a rule requiring any additional receptacles for unfinished basements.
I assume there is already at least one GFCI protected receptacle in the basement

 

[jxofaltrds]

I asked Mike Holt during his webinar if he could explain the height, width or structure of cabinets that do not require receptacles per 210.52 and he responded;
90.4

One time I had a whole library made with custom cabinetry. Then what?

What about a dining room with four posts? No wall space.

(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered
necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and
proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially
free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient,
or adequate for good service or future expansion of
electrical use.

 

[darekelec]

What about a dining room with four posts? No wall space.

No wall = no receptacle = no problem. No violation.

 

[Sierrasparky]

There needs to be a wall somewhere. What about floor outlets.

If this was such a grand house that had a dine room in the middle of a space and I would not want to be the CHEAP EC who did not have a outlet nearby for a coffee maker or hot plate.

 

[infinity]

What about a dining room with four posts? No wall space.

No wall = no receptacle = no problem. No violation.

I agree.

 

[jxofaltrds]

What about a dining room with four posts? No wall space.

(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered
necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and
proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially
free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient,
or adequate for good service or future expansion of
electrical use.

What about a dining room with four posts? No wall space.

No wall = no receptacle = no problem. No violation.

I agree.

Me too!

 

[Ragin Cajun]

But on my drawings I would at least put them at each "post".

RC

 

[jxofaltrds]

But on my drawings I would at least put them at each "post".

RC

You are allowed just not required. Unless it's circumference is more than 2'.

Not sure if it was a wooden round post it would be required but what if it was plaster or drywall or square?

By square I mean hollow in the middle.

 

[infinity]

You are allowed just not required. Unless it's circumference is more than 2'.

Not sure if it was a wooden round post it would be required but what if it was plaster or drywall or square?

By square I mean hollow in the middle.

A post or a column is not wall space so no receptacle is required.

 

[jxofaltrds]

A post or a column is not wall space so no receptacle is required.

Agreed.

Now these are in the hallway but what if the room had four of these defining it?

 

[infinity]

Still not a wall and still not required.

Same thing would apply to a finished basement where the columns have been boxed out, even if their overall dimension around exceeds 2'.

 

[mwm1752]

Agreed.

Now these are in the hallway but what if the room had four of these defining it?

View attachment 9796

Greater than 2' of unbroken wall -- does it create a doorway to the room? Is it a place for furniture? Black & white code IMO says yes but this could be considered a dealers choice circumstance when addressed in the field.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Greater than 2' of unbroken wall -- does it create a doorway to the room? Is it a place for furniture? Black & white code IMO says yes but this could be considered a dealers choice circumstance when addressed in the field.

Kinda what I thought.

 

[Dugswork]

If these are storage cabinets in unfinished basements as I am reading your post. I do not know of a rule requiring any additional receptacles for unfinished basements.
I assume there is already at least one GFCI protected receptacle in the basement

My first post was a bit unclear. Customer has an unfinished basement he is converting to finished with a big TV, wet bar etc. The cabinets cover one wall {approx 15 ft} and are to be 36" - 46" high with a solid top. Would these be classified as "countertop" requiring the outlets within 12" - what if a wet bar was adjacent or integrated?

Another customer had cabinets of the same type & height and a built in wine cooler already installed in a obvious dining room. They wanted some lighting above them, tapped off the small appliance circuit of course. My estimate involved finding another circuit for the lighting and explained that an inspector might want to add outlets to the cabinet top. Was I way off base in this?

Thanks for responses!

 

[jxofaltrds]

My first post was a bit unclear. Customer has an unfinished basement he is converting to finished with a big TV, wet bar etc. The cabinets cover one wall {approx 15 ft} and are to be 36" - 46" high with a solid top. Would these be classified as "countertop" requiring the outlets within 12" - what if a wet bar was adjacent or integrated?

Another customer had cabinets of the same type & height and a built in wine cooler already installed in a obvious dining room. They wanted some lighting above them, tapped off the small appliance circuit of course. My estimate involved finding another circuit for the lighting and explained that an inspector might want to add outlets to the cabinet top. Was I way off base in this?

Thanks for responses!

Here is the counter top requirement. You tell us.

(C) Countertops. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms,
dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle
outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordance
with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5).

As to the 12":

"Receptacle outlets shall be installed so
that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm
(24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in
that space."

 

[kwired]

I asked Mike Holt during his webinar if he could explain the height, width or structure of cabinets that do not require receptacles per 210.52 and he responded;
90.4

One time I had a whole library made with custom cabinetry. Then what?

What about a dining room with four posts? No wall space.

No wall = no receptacle = no problem. No violation.

The library you mentioned has no wall either - same answer. Adding additional outlets beyond the minimum requirement (of zero) is not a violation though.

There needs to be a wall somewhere. What about floor outlets.

If this was such a grand house that had a dine room in the middle of a space and I would not want to be the CHEAP EC who did not have a outlet nearby for a coffee maker or hot plate.

Who says there must be walls? It is usually desirable to have walls separating air conditioned space from outdoors at a minimum, but go to some places like Hawaii and you may find exterior walls are even more optional than in places that get to any temperature extremes. Unless they are planning to put the coffee or hotplate on the floor there is probably somewhat of a defined area where it makes some sense to have a receptacle even if code doesn't require one there.

My first post was a bit unclear. Customer has an unfinished basement he is converting to finished with a big TV, wet bar etc. The cabinets cover one wall {approx 15 ft} and are to be 36" - 46" high with a solid top. Would these be classified as "countertop" requiring the outlets within 12" - what if a wet bar was adjacent or integrated?

Another customer had cabinets of the same type & height and a built in wine cooler already installed in a obvious dining room. They wanted some lighting above them, tapped off the small appliance circuit of course. My estimate involved finding another circuit for the lighting and explained that an inspector might want to add outlets to the cabinet top. Was I way off base in this?

Thanks for responses!

Only required counter top outlets in general are for kitchen counters. If you don't have a kitchen there is no requirement for any receptacles, besides maybe for connection of specific equipment, but that generally goes for things like refrigerators, dishwashers, clothes washers, other larger equipment that is fixed or not necessarily easily moved. Notice I said generally, this could be debated to no end if I tried to say it applied/didn't apply in all cases.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Here is the counter top requirement. You tell us.

(C) Countertops. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms,
dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle
outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordance
with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5).

As to the 12":

"Receptacle outlets shall be installed so
that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm
(24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in
that space."

The library you mentioned has no wall either - same answer. Adding additional outlets beyond the minimum requirement (of zero) is not a violation though.

Who says there must be walls? It is usually desirable to have walls separating air conditioned space from outdoors at a minimum, but go to some places like Hawaii and you may find exterior walls are even more optional than in places that get to any temperature extremes. Unless they are planning to put the coffee or hotplate on the floor there is probably somewhat of a defined area where it makes some sense to have a receptacle even if code doesn't require one there.

Only required counter top outlets in general are for kitchen counters. If you don't have a kitchen there is no requirement for any receptacles, besides maybe for connection of specific equipment, but that generally goes for things like refrigerators, dishwashers, clothes washers, other larger equipment that is fixed or not necessarily easily moved. Notice I said generally, this could be debated to no end if I tried to say it applied/didn't apply in all cases.

This is why I asked him to tell us. We have no way of knowing what use the counters have.