German view of US Electrician training.

[fmtjfw]

"If you have a certificate that you're an electrician, it doesn't matter if you do it in Hamburg or Berlin," Stellmaszek says. "Companies know what they get."

Europeans are often baffled when they try to hire U.S. workers, she says.

"You don't really know what you get," she says. "If someone tells you they're an electrician, they could have just exchanged light bulbs at an amusement park or they could have worked, maybe, at complex problems."

Stellmazek knows it's impossible to import such an elaborate program to the U.S. It's based on the guild system of the 1800s, and counts on reciprocity ? workers trained by a company must work their first three years for that company before they can leave. But the program is also the reason Germany isn't seeing a skills gap like the U.S.

The above is a quote from a representative of the German - American Chamber of Commerce in Atlanta, GA, USA (representing German firms with US plants). It is about the the problems they have hiring tradesmen/women above minimum skills and below college degrees.

What do you think?

It has been my experience that students from HS level trade schools vary from those who can install and program PLCs and complex motor starter systems, to those that use green wire as a hot conductor.

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/08/287549571/what-germans-know-could-help-bridge-u-s-workers-skill-gap

 

[John120/240]

Green wire as a hot conductor, surely you are kidding ? Not. A local apartment complex, 8 buildings built 1974/75.
EMT conduit through out with green as a hot.

 

[fmtjfw]

Green wire as a hot conductor, surely you are kidding ? Not. A local apartment complex, 8 buildings built 1974/75.
EMT conduit through out with green as a hot.

Sure schools built in the 1920's green wire as a hot wire, but students in 2010+ NEVER should even have such an idea.

 

[fmtjfw]

The point is not green wire, but the large range of skill or lack of skill from supposedly the same program with the same State instructional objectives.

 

[ceb58]

The point is not green wire, but the large range of skill or lack of skill from supposedly the same program with the same State instructional objectives.

A lot of the problem falls on the shoulders of companies that advertise and hire " electricians". I had a guy that worked for me that said he had worked as an electrician for 5 years. Guy could not tell you how many neutrals there were in a MWBC. Put a conduit bender in his hands and it was like watching an artist at work. Very seldom would he use a tape measure he could look at what he needed and start bending. Point being, he had all ways been hired as an electrician, but all he ever did was run conduit. Said he never pulled wire the wire crew came in behind them to pull wire.
Saw an ad for "electricians" to work on a military base. They put in the ad the only requirement was you had to be able to know the difference between black, red, white and green wire.

 

[PetrosA]

I agree that it is mostly the employers' fault. If companies wanted well trained electricians, they could create them. The down side is that then they would also have to pay for them.

The German system is a very effective one. In general European electricians have seemed pretty highly trained to me. They need to have a lot more theory than we generally get because the way their codes are set up demands much more input from the electrician to decide what can be done and how, ex. sizing cables and grounds, whereas the NEC takes that burden off of the electrician in many cases by using a table based system.

I think the problem here in the US is deeper than just training, though. We are not paying enough to attract intelligent young people with a decent basic education into the trade and without them, our standards have to suffer. Understanding the NEC today requires a much higher level of comprehension skills than it ever did before but many of the younger guys I've met can't even come close to reading the text and figuring out what it means. Heck I have problems with it and I'm a pretty intelligent person. To be a good electrician you also need to have aptitude in a lot of different areas and master a lot of different tasks. Kids who can do that don't want to lock themselves into a career that isn't going to get them past the $45,000/year mark in the next ten years unless it's their passion.

The other issue is that the way contracting is done here requires the highest level of production at the lowest possible cost. If that means that the guy who's good at running pipe only ever does that and never learns how to wire a three-way switch, then so be it. I can't say if that's the best long-term path for us, but it's the way things are nowadays.

 

[cadpoint]

The problem is that with the way Germany has set up their apprenticeships that in fact it is way beyond what just about any other country has or does and in fact has nothing to compare it to.

There are many things that we do but are not even close to a comparison. A technical two year degree is not, certainly not even vocationally trained is not. Even the State run or IBEW is not.

All combined we only train at best 60 maybe 70% of what is needed, but it's really only floating at 40 if 50% of what the Germans do with their trainee's.

There's no comparison, the quote by the representive of German is whole sell correct.

 

[PetrosA]

The problem is that with the way Germany has set up their apprenticeships that in fact it is way beyond what just about any other country has or does and in fact has nothing to compare it to.

There are many things that we do but are not even close to a comparison. A technical two year degree is not, certainly not even vocationally trained is not. Even the State run or IBEW is not.

All combined we only train at best 60 maybe 70% of what is needed, but it's really only floating at 40 if 50% of what the Germans do with their trainee's.

There's no comparison, the quote by the representive of German is whole sell correct.

Which again brings us back to the economics of it all. We don't want to pay for a highly skilled workforce of electricians. If even the IBEW or other best US training falls short of the German system and we look at what those guys are being paid here and if, in fact, they're only trained 60-70% of their German counterparts, we'd have to up those salaries as well if we provided comparable training here. That would turn the whole industry on its head, since even now those highest trained workers are pretty much limited to working in commercial and industrial settings. If we had to start paying those salaries for residential work, we'd be in deep trouble.

 

[cadpoint]

I think your missing the whole-sale jest of what the German is saying, that they in fact have no
reference point and don't have any correct measure to access an applicant for a position, it's stated in the first three sentences.

There was no implied economics to hiring anyone that was stated in the orginal article, it was not mentioned, money is not the object of this statement. It is a statement that they the ?Europeans or in this case the Germans? do not understand any measureable level of competence of a forgien party applying for a job.

They do understand what a German apprentice is, verses what a non-German is trying to offer in any given job opening.

NC cleared up who's an electrician, one needs a license to state that they are one!

Don't worry about wrapping a house gezz, those boys will feel their oats later.

 

[fmtjfw]

German firms in the US are not hiring residential electricians.

So could we translate the skills that a German Lehrling (apprentice) or Geselle (journeyman) have into the US equivalent and provide certification?

 

[augie47]

I'd say the original post was right on target. In this Country (definitely in this area) the term "electrician" no longer has any direct relation to competence or skill.
I can't say the situation if different in European countries. From what I have seen of German electricians, they are highly skilled, but the ones I have met are in industrial jobs that demand those skills. I know nothing about the qualifications of European electricians that wire homes. (There are a few Baltic States electricians who work in this area and their residential work is not exceptional)
It is unfortunate that we can not automatically necessarily associate "skill" with "electrician". TN, as a State, does not require any testing for electricians, only for contractors, so we have situations where yesterday's grocery clerk is today's "electrician" if the contractor wishes to hand him a tool belt and put him on a job.
The free enterprise system eventually takes care of the situation to some degree and meanwhile those of us that work as inspectors try to assure the jobs meet some minimum standards and are safe. Meanwhile the European firms mentioned in the article put little value in the term electrician and normally have extensive pre-hire testing.
I don't foresee any changes.

 

[Clearwater master]

Training

Training

Giving a choice of working with no training for 10.10 an hour minimum wage in a air condition Walmart stocking shelves or going to school for four years two nights a week apprenticeship while working full time for $12.00 and hour to top out at 15-16 an hour. That's a hard choice. The problems is contractors need to stop cutting their rates to undercut the other contractors and bring the rate we charge back up so we can pay higher wages at all levels. In 1979 I made $18.80 (nonunion) on commercial jobs and was required to go to trade school to keep my job. I have talked to high school guidance counselors and they only refer problem students into their trade programs, that is only going to produce problem employees. The solution is to go back to the way we did it thirty years ago, higher wages, and require them to go to school while working for a licensed contractor for four years to get a state license as a electrician.

 

[petersonra]

It is mostly about what level of skills an employer is willing to accept.

The Europeans on the whole accept the authoritarian top-down approach where government controls most of your life a whole lot better than Americans do. It makes it easier to force a one-size-fits-all solution.

 

[kwired]

I'd say the original post was right on target. In this Country (definitely in this area) the term "electrician" no longer has any direct relation to competence or skill.
I can't say the situation if different in European countries. From what I have seen of German electricians, they are highly skilled, but the ones I have met are in industrial jobs that demand those skills. I know nothing about the qualifications of European electricians that wire homes. (There are a few Baltic States electricians who work in this area and their residential work is not exceptional)
It is unfortunate that we can not automatically necessarily associate "skill" with "electrician". TN, as a State, does not require any testing for electricians, only for contractors, so we have situations where yesterday's grocery clerk is today's "electrician" if the contractor wishes to hand him a tool belt and put him on a job.
The free enterprise system eventually takes care of the situation to some degree and meanwhile those of us that work as inspectors try to assure the jobs meet some minimum standards and are safe. Meanwhile the European firms mentioned in the article put little value in the term electrician and normally have extensive pre-hire testing.
I don't foresee any changes.

I was a grocery clerk in high school and part of college:roll:

I think part of the problem is the licensing requirements are too easy, if the goal is to get good qualified electricians. There are many people that come to this site asking questions for licensing exams that make me wonder about the quality of the electricians we are getting from these licensing exams. Those who have to take the exam multiple times, plain and simple probably are not cut out for it. If the content of that exam is that hard for you, how can you expect to be successful, granted there are some test writers out there that need to be reevaluated as well, but a Jman should be able to find an answer to a question that involved NEC, and should be able to do most calculations involving basic theory applications, as well as answer questions about the laws of the AHJ he is testing for.

Giving a choice of working with no training for 10.10 an hour minimum wage in a air condition Walmart stocking shelves or going to school for four years two nights a week apprenticeship while working full time for $12.00 and hour to top out at 15-16 an hour. That's a hard choice. The problems is contractors need to stop cutting their rates to undercut the other contractors and bring the rate we charge back up so we can pay higher wages at all levels. In 1979 I made $18.80 (nonunion) on commercial jobs and was required to go to trade school to keep my job. I have talked to high school guidance counselors and they only refer problem students into their trade programs, that is only going to produce problem employees. The solution is to go back to the way we did it thirty years ago, higher wages, and require them to go to school while working for a licensed contractor for four years to get a state license as a electrician.

I agree, and if we make licensing harder like I mentioned above, we would weed out all those that get their license and undercut the others because they see more dollars than they did before as an apprentice or Jman. What they don't realize is they have overhead costs, maybe not as much at first, but they often don't adjust rates as those overhead costs increase and eventually it catches up to them, they find themselves working hard to keep busy enough to pay the bills, and may find they ultimately would have been better off working less at a lower rate for someone else as they are now married to their business and have no time for anything else. When there are times where there is a lot of work available this may not get noticed as easily, but when there is economic downturns, and consumers are not spending as much, it exposes these problems more.

 

[Ken9876]

I think the state of our vocational training in this country is a joke. I was working with a fellow, who after 4 years of apprentice school and 2 years in high school trade school asked how a 240V fixture worked without a grounded conductor. That person now holds a NJ contractor?s license, scary. I work with IBEW electricians all the time and most are great at installing conduit and wire, however when it comes to troubleshooting a simple control circuit don?t know where to begin.
I find it funny that what many would consider electronics training is really not and just basic electricity. More time needs to be spent on theory, motors, transformers? this is what makes someone useful down the road.

 

[PetrosA]

It is mostly about what level of skills an employer is willing to accept.

The Europeans on the whole accept the authoritarian top-down approach where government controls most of your life a whole lot better than Americans do. It makes it easier to force a one-size-fits-all solution.

This isn't a top-down approach. It's a guild approach. If you think of the guild as an across-the-board union (IOW all electricians are educated and undergo apprenticeships) regardless of whether they do commercial, residential or industrial and the guild sets hourly wages then you get an idea of how it works in Germany. It's not the government setting the wages, it's the guild. Customers also have the guild to turn to to settle disputes in addition to the contractor.

It's all part of the German approach towards teaching crafts. Master the basics, then specialize from there and this applies to all fields. I took my car to a German mechanic once in Germany and that was enough to make me leery of every American mechanic I've been to since

 

[augie47]

I was a grocery clerk in high school and part of college:roll:

.

My point is proven
(just joking, of course)
Seriously, we have one local contractor that hires young fellows whose experience may well be clerks and, after working them with an electrician for a year, obtains a "state journeymans" card for them (requires no testing). Next thing you know they are the trainer.

The closest jurisdiction that requires testing for journeymen has had complaints from the IBEW because too many applicants are failing. Rather than bolster the training, especially in NEC, they want easier testing.

 

[ptonsparky]

IMO part of the the problem is we are not allowed to expose kids to work outside the food service industry. I have had kids, 16-17 yr olds, ask about summer work. Sorry, you can drive a tractor for the neighbor, but you have to be 18 and have 60 hours of safety training before you can touch a shovel here.

 

[Ponchik]

I believe the problem is at multiple levels.

1. The licensing system being too easy. (California's licensing exams are a joke)
2. The individual who multiple times and finally gets that one piece of paper (license) and does not want further education. (IMO, just because you are licensed it does not mean you are a crafted, knowledgable tradesman.)
3. The company who does not promote further education and training.
4. The customer who wants to pay for cheap labor and does not care about the good company who has educated and well trained employees.

 

[PetrosA]

IMO part of the the problem is we are not allowed to expose kids to work outside the food service industry. I have had kids, 16-17 yr olds, ask about summer work. Sorry, you can drive a tractor for the neighbor, but you have to be 18 and have 60 hours of safety training before you can touch a shovel here.

I agree. We need to be able to get 14 year olds in on this if it's going to stick. The brain of a 14-15 year old is able to absorb new knowledge very differently than that of a 19 year old. Maybe partly because it's more focused?