120v washing machine circuit converted to 240v for new washing machine

[JohnDS]

Hey guys,

My fathers washer is on the bum and a 120v circuit feeds it. The new washer he wants to get is 240v. Since this is a split level home, it is very difficult to get a new 240v line to washer because the panel is a floor down and the washer is on next split level up with cement floor. He is insisting that I make the existing line a 240v circuit but I believe this is a serious violation because, the circuit is coming off the main panel which is technically a subpanel with grounds and neutrals separated(located more than five feet from meter). Aside from the code violation, would this be a major safety hazard to do it this way because if I do not do it for him, he will do it himself? If so, why?

 

[MasterTheNEC]

JohnDS,

To be honest with you I could not pull out enough proper information from your post to be able to even give you an answer. Also that is one massive washing machine if it needs 240 volts. I do not believe I have ever seen a washer machine of this specification, that does not mean they don't exist I just don't recall ever seeing one that would have a need to be 240 volts.

In your question you also did not provide any amperage information and what the existing conductor situation is. I can tell you that from what I gather you have a (2) conductor with ground branch circuit and now you want it to supply something that chances are would need (4) conductors....(2) ungrounded, (1) grounded, and (1) grounding conductors but alas with the information provided I can't be honest in saying my assumption is correct either.

You also say the circuit is coming off a main panel then within your next breathe you say it's technical a subpanel. It's either a main service or a distribution panel but it can't really be both in the way you presented it. Also you stated (more than 5 feet from the meter) but it is important to know if their is a separate service disconnection means between that meter and the panel you are referring too because if their is not....then this is a service panel and not as you stated.."technically a subpanel" so again your question is very misleading and answering it would be pure speculation on anyones part.

Can you clarify your question? Can you express the number of conductors, ampacity of the new washer, size of the existing conductors and lastly be a little more specific on your panel description. This will help the members here answer your question better and more accurately.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If the 120v circuit is a home run than it can easily be converted to 240V. No neutral is needed. just tape the white conductor on both ends and move the conductor at the panel to a dp breaker with the black. Make sure there is nothing else on the circuit or you will fry anything on it.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Or you could ignore my post and go with Mr. Alwon instead...he is the moderator.

 

[GoldDigger]

A washer could be designed for an offshore market that uses only 220 and brought into the US market either legally or illegally.
Some washers offer a "steam" cycle and a "sanitize" cycle, both of which involve heating water inside the machine. Such a unit, even for the US market could have a 240 option. But I would double check whether it needs a neutral.
Both the electronics and the direct drive pulsed DC motor could well run off straight 240.
What male cord connector comes with the machine?


Tapatalk!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Or you could ignore my post and go with Mr. Alwon instead...he is the moderator.

That doesn't mean a thing about being a mod but I have installed many a washer and I have always put them on a designated circuit as are many of the ones around here. That is an easy convert in that case-- Europeans use 240v machines all the time and they are the same size as the american units. I have also hooked up many of them also.

 

[JohnDS]

Ok. The house has a disconect outside the house by the meter. The panel is located about 15feet into house. Grounding conductors and grounded conductors are separated. Right now there is a 12/2 120v romex(hot, neutral, ground) running to washer. I am not sure at this point what amperage the new washer is but assuming that this existing 12/2 romex is suitable for the new washer's amperage, would it be ok in this scenario to convert the circuit to 240v? It is a dedicated circuit. I hope this clears things up, thank you for the help guys.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

That doesn't mean a thing about being a mod but I have installed many a washer and I have always put them on a designated circuit as are many of the ones around here. That is an easy convert in that case-- Europeans use 240v machines all the time and they are the same size as the american units. I have also hooked up many of them also.

Well Said. However, is he importing a European Washer Machine?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It does not necessarily have to be imported. Some of these washer are readily available here in the US-- they may come from Europe- IDK.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I believe Miele makes a 240V unit

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is one made by whirlpool http://www.whirlpool220.com/Whirlpool-Super-Capacity-220240v-60hz-Washing-Machine-80.html

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Well then....as long as that washing machine does not need a "grounded" conductor then I would say re-identify the white conductor in your NM Cable and have at it. However, I would almost bet (not at a casino however) that you would need (4) conductors for that washing machine. If so you can't achieve that with a 12-2 NM Cable.

 

[John120/240]

It sounds like you have all the bases covered & it would work fine. Bosch at one time offered a washer with its own water heater, it required 240 V.

JohnDS No offense but if you are not comfortable or sure of your self, PLEASE consult a professional.
Best of Luck, another John

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Well then....as long as that washing machine does not need a "grounded" conductor then I would say re-identify the white conductor in your NM Cable and have at it. However, I would almost bet (not at a casino however) that you would need (4) conductors for that washing machine. If so you can't achieve that with a 12-2 NM Cable.

I have never seen a 240V washer that needed a grounded conductor. There may be some out there but I have not seen one.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Just for fun I tried to look at the specs for that washer and it would not load for me. I agree, chances are it does not need a grounded (neutral) conductor but better safe than sorry as the specs will tell. Also the plug configuration will also shed light on it as well. However, I think the OP has enough info to make an educated decision and since he is dealing with NM Cable he can refer to section 200.7(C) as his guide in terms of his 12-2 NM-B Cable reidentification.

 

[Besoeker]

Also that is one massive washing machine if it needs 240 volts. I do not believe I have ever seen a washer machine of this specification, that does not mean they don't exist I just don't recall ever seeing one that would have a need to be 240 volts.

Such machines exist all over Europe. Not massive. Just regular domestic washing machines.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Ah...very interesting. Can't say I have run into them and in my mind I began to think...why on earth would you need a 240V washing machine but as someone else posted I guess they have an onboard water heater...go figure.

 

[augie47]

take your pick:
http://www.samstores.com/search-220-volts-washers-975.html

 

[GoldDigger]

take your pick:
http://www.samstores.com/search-220-volts-washers-975.html

If you do a deeper dive into some of those listings (such as Electrolux) you will see the statement that the models are "not designed for use in North America" and there is no mention of UL listing.
So the devil is in the details on a machine by machine basis.

For a given machine, this may just be CYA, or it could also reflect the fact that the machine is designed to have one of the 220V input lines be a grounded conductor. Or that the necessary UL testing was not done since it is not helpful in the intended market.

 

[JohnDS]

The washer is actually a Bosch. He chose this one because it has good ratings. It is a side loader like the existing and is located under the countertop so it happens to be an exact fit. I do not know however, the specs just yet.

Ok so from what I am gathering here is that if amperage on new washer is low enough for the existing 12/2 romex to accommodate it, and it does not need a neutral, then I am good to go with converting this circuit to 240v?

What I was getting at mostly with my question, was that I remember something in the code that states if you are hooking up a new age stove with 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground to old wiring that only has 2 hots and a ground, that it is ok to do so(in this case, you would bond the neutral terminal on stove to grounding terminal) as long as 3 instances are met: 1) the dedicated circuit does not originate from a subpanel. I am ashamed that I do not remember the other two rules.

So judging from what I am gathering here, these rules do not apply in the washer scenario since I had mentioned that the dedicated circuit does in fact originate from a panel with grounded and grounding conductors that are separate?