120v washing machine circuit converted to 240v for new washing machine

[Archieash]

Well some stackable washer dryers use 240v
(But) they need a insulated neutral for the 120 part of machine ( washer motor
You need to check paper work to be sure


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[Dennis Alwon]

Well some stackable washer dryers use 240v
(But) they need a insulated neutral for the 120 part of machine ( washer motor
You need to check paper work to be sure


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is true but not what the op is talking about

 

[fmtjfw]

If you do a deeper dive into some of those listings (such as Electrolux) you will see the statement that the models are "not designed for use in North America" and there is no mention of UL listing.
So the devil is in the details on a machine by machine basis.

For a given machine, this may just be CYA, or it could also reflect the fact that the machine is designed to have one of the 220V input lines be a grounded conductor. Or that the necessary UL testing was not done since it is not helpful in the intended market.

If it is for the German market note that their plugs are NOT polarized, just flip them and the neutral becomes hot or vice-versa. Thus it is unlikely to depend on the neutral even existing.

 

[hurk27]

European equipment will never have a 220/110 type of wiring since all they have in a house is 220 50hz

So everything on them runs at 220v, some areas of Europe do not have a grounded system and depend upon RCD's to protect from shock hazards, but the biggest problem is two fold, the motor will run faster, and if it has an older synchronous or an electronic timer that depends upon the frequency of the power line then the clock will run faster on 60hz, so it just goes through its cycles faster, but then the agitator and spin cycles also run faster.

My sister has a whirlpool front loader that is also 240 volts 60hz rated, it did not need a neutral, the matching dryer which was also 240 volts, unlike older units also did not need a neutral as everything including the timer and motor was 240 volts, I just did like was said here, since she had NM I remarked the whit black on both ends and changed the receptacle to a 250v 15/20 amp, it had one slot that looked like a sideways T because the 15 amp is two side ways flat blades and the 20 amp is one vertical and one sideways.

But you must check the manufactures specs, if you have the model number, maybe we can look it up for you since you can't get it to load?

 

[hurk27]

Ok after a little research (ok I'm board) I looked at several models that sound like what the OP has:

Bosch Axxis Washer WAS20160UC 24 front load under cabinet mount

240 vac 60hz
12 amps with steam/water heater
10 amps without steam
3 wire cord H,H,G
No neutral needed

If the above is true then you are good to go.
Also if you have the matching dryer the dryer already has a receptacle on the back of it to plug in the washer. but the dryer circuit might not be large enough to run both????

Another higher model is 15 amps, but still 3 prong cord, but it has both steam and water heater for 161? rinse water sanitation mode.

So my best guess is if you are getting any of these 24" undercabinet models, either the 2.2cu inch or the 1.9cu. inch you should be fine remarking the white with black tape on both ends and landing them on a 2-pole 20 amp breaker then change the receptacle to a 250 volt/15/20 amp rated receptacle, as I would assume the original circuit was a 20 amp laundry circuit originally? and this would be code compliant.

 

[GoldDigger]

The possibly required laundry circuit is now a 240 volt non-MWBC circuit fed from a two pole breaker. Does that still meet the requirement for a laundry circuit?


Tapatalk!

 

[hurk27]

Also a point that many don't pick up on, if an appliance needs a neutral the voltage will be listed as 120/240 or 240/120, or in the case of these washers, since they will also work on 208, is they list them as 208/240, I saw a few dryers listed as 120/240/208, but almost all 240 volt rated washers were just 208/240 rated, as well as a few dryers I saw that didn't need a neutral, I think this change is to get away from the problem of old dryer installations with only 3-wire branch circuits, I have also seen this in some ranges and cook tops as well as some built in ovens of late, also like many electronic appliances are going world wide such as many HD TV's as well as my DVD and blue ray player now can be set up for PAL or NTSC and set for 100-240 vac 50/60hz, as with switch mode power supplies are mostly universal, my Sony Bravia even came with power adapters plugs for Europe that just goes on the end of the cord, I believe one day all appliances will be designed to work world wide, even motors could be design to work at both 50hz as well as 60hz via either a small two speed gear box, or electronic frequency conversion as most of these motors are small and a simple triacs speed control could make a 1750 motor run at 1450 vary easily when on 60hz, many appliances now even use small VFD's to control the speed of the appliance instead of using gear box's, so they would have no problem switching between 50 or 60hz, I think it will be the wave of the future.

 

[hurk27]

The possibly required laundry circuit is now a 240 volt non-MWBC circuit fed from a two pole breaker. Does that still meet the requirement for a laundry circuit?


Tapatalk!

Sure voltage is not specified:

210.11(C)(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided
to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by
210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.

Or does 210.52(F)

210.52(F) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle
outlet shall be installed for the laundry.

But the problem I see is 220.52(B) does not account that a 240 volt laundry circuit can supply a more power, so should we be using 3000 va.? it even points to 210.11(C)(2)?:huh:

At one time I had an inspector try to make me also install a 120 volt receptacle in a closet that was sized and design for only a stacked washer and dryer combo that was 240 volts only, saying that the 240 volt circuit didn't meet the requirement, well until I pointed out that the above didn't say what the voltage of the circuit had to be.

Another little tidbit, no GFCI required see 210.8(A) it does not include 240 volt circuits. so even if you have a sink within 6'.

 

[Besoeker]

Ah...very interesting. Can't say I have run into them and in my mind I began to think...why on earth would you need a 240V washing machine but as someone else posted I guess they have an onboard water heater...go figure.

Here, in UK, and in the EU zone everything residential runs on 230V single phase. It keeps things simple. One system. I think a lot of people here would be perplexed/horrified to be confronted with something like a washing machine that needed two different voltages.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I believe the dryers in Europe are also 240 or 230 but they do not have a neutral and are 20 amps. I have installed one of those. I am wondering when they are going to make the american units straight 240.

 

[JohnDS]

Wow, thanks guys for all the replies. I have more information.
It is a Bosch Wap24202uc, 2.2 cuft. I had to wait for the my old man to wake up. Ok so it sounds like I am good to go.

1) So just to be clear, it does not matter that the circuit is originating off a panel with grounded and and grounding conductors that are separated because no neutral is needed on washer, correct?

2) And I am assuming that if the washer did require a neutral, converting existing line to 240v and bonding the grounding and grounded terminals would in fact be a violation because of the type of panel it is, correct?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Wow, thanks guys for all the replies. I have more information.
It is a Bosch Wap24202uc, 2.2 cuft. I had to wait for the my old man to wake up. Ok so it sounds like I am good to go.

1) So just to be clear, it does not matter that the circuit is originating off a panel with grounded and and grounding conductors that are separated because no neutral is needed on washer, correct?

2) And I am assuming that if the washer did require a neutral, converting existing line to 240v and bonding the grounding and grounded terminals would in fact be a violation because of the type of panel it is, correct?

1) that is correct

2) This is also correct-- but this is for dryers not washers.

 

[JohnDS]

2) This is also correct-- but this is for dryers not washers.

Same for stoves?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Same for stoves?

That is correct but not for new installation- only existing

 

[JohnDS]

Thanks again everyone, much appreciated.

 

[Besoeker]

I believe the dryers in Europe are also 240 or 230 but they do not have a neutral and are 20 amps. I have installed one of those. I am wondering when they are going to make the american units straight 240.

We do have a neutral.
Perhaps you're thinking of neutral as being the centre tap of a 120-0-120V system.

Domestic supplies are generally derived from the line to neutral of a the 400V star (Y) secondary of a distribution transformer which results in 230V line to neutral. Wire colours are brown for live, blue for neutral and yellow-green for earth.

The dryer we have takes about 11A. Our plugs have a fuse fitted. For our dryer it is specified as 13A which is the full rating of the plug.

 

[kwired]

European equipment will never have a 220/110 type of wiring since all they have in a house is 220 50hz

So everything on them runs at 220v, some areas of Europe do not have a grounded system and depend upon RCD's to protect from shock hazards, but the biggest problem is two fold, the motor will run faster, and if it has an older synchronous or an electronic timer that depends upon the frequency of the power line then the clock will run faster on 60hz, so it just goes through its cycles faster, but then the agitator and spin cycles also run faster.

My sister has a whirlpool front loader that is also 240 volts 60hz rated, it did not need a neutral, the matching dryer which was also 240 volts, unlike older units also did not need a neutral as everything including the timer and motor was 240 volts, I just did like was said here, since she had NM I remarked the whit black on both ends and changed the receptacle to a 250v 15/20 amp, it had one slot that looked like a sideways T because the 15 amp is two side ways flat blades and the 20 amp is one vertical and one sideways.

But you must check the manufactures specs, if you have the model number, maybe we can look it up for you since you can't get it to load?

I believe a lot of the higher efficiency washers use ECM motors and the frequency probably makes no difference when it comes to speed for this type of motor. It will still effect any timer that uses frequency of the supply as a timing base though.

 

[PetrosA]

Besoeker, I think the confusion lies in the fact that most US dryers are wired with 240V feeding the heating element and 120V powering the fan and electronics so even with a three wire dryer plug here the third wire is functioning as a neutral because there is a load on it. A stupid system, I know but that's what we have to deal with.

 

[mbrooke]

If the washer is not slash rated but straight 240 just move the black and white to a double pole breaker. Re mark the white with some black or red tap.

Do the same at the outlet box and add a NEMA 6-20 outlet.



Assuming this is 12-2 NM with ground and nothing else is on this circuit.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

After all this I went to a new house we just finished. The dryer was 4 wire but the washer had a 4 wire 30 amp cord also. Now looking at it one would think you needed 2- 30 amp circuits but I remembered years ago- these units are 12 years old- Miele made these and you had to buy a splitter specifically made for these unit. Plug the splitter into the 30 amp dryer plug and attached was a jb with 2- 30 amp receptacles with in line fuses.

So she has to buy this $240 unit have it shipped etc- probably $275 which she should have had when she first got it. Apparently the electrician wired up a small panel and fed them separately from the dryer cir. I thought we had screwed up--- They don't make these units like that any more for obvious reasons. The washer had 2- 1300 watt heater elements for the hot water.-- Dryer only had 10 amp draw.