Flexible cords and receptacles above suspended ceilings

[jtinge]

Just reviewing a few past threads regarding receptacles above suspended ceilings, which everyone seems to agree is permitted. However, there was a consensus opinion that they couldn't be used for anything other than temporary power for tools BECAUSE 400.8 did not permit flexible cords above a suspended ceiling.

Then there was a pretty lengthy discussion ("cords" above ceiling) about whether a power cord for a TV, projector, etc is in fact a flexible cord covered by the prohibitions in NEC 400.8. The arguement being that power cords are UL listed differently than flexible cords and thus not prohibited above suspended ceilings. After 105 thread responses, I'm not sure there was any resolution to the debate.

Clarifying this issue sure would go far into the discussion about whether or not you can plug a ceiling mounted projector to an above ceiling receptacle.

Does anyone have any further insight into this conundrum and whether or not there is any code activity to clarify the issue?

 

[cowboyjwc]

I say no cords above a ceiling, but I was only agreed with by about 50% in that thread.:happyyes: I don't think you're going to get every one to agree. But if you look at 400.7(A)(8), you might be able to argue it. Then 400.7(B)(2) & (5) seem to override that.

 

[mopowr steve]

At Mike Holts seminar he said that "power cords" to equipment fell under a different UL listing (found in the back of the NEC) and do not apply to the flexible cords article. And that Yes they can be installed and plugged in to a receptacle above a drop ceiling. IMO it relates to going out and installing loose stock seoo cord to fixtures/ recepts /equipment above that ceiling.

 

[mopowr steve]

He also cited what else would a heating guy do with his condensation pump for furnace/AC above drop ceiling.

 

[electrofelon]

I generally follow the philosophy that the NEC ends at the outlet and doesnt address what harry homeowner can or cant plug in.

 

[iwire]

He also cited what else would a heating guy do with his condensation pump for furnace/AC above drop ceiling.

In my area the inspectors will fail the job and require hard wired pumps. They are available.

 

[iwire]

I generally follow the philosophy that the NEC ends at the outlet and doesnt address what harry homeowner can or cant plug in.

In my opinion the NFPA / NEC see it differently.

There are many code sections that clearly go beyond the outlet.

 

[Hendrix]

Just reviewing a few past threads regarding receptacles above suspended ceilings, which everyone seems to agree is permitted. However, there was a consensus opinion that they couldn't be used for anything other than temporary power for tools BECAUSE 400.8 did not permit flexible cords above a suspended ceiling.

Then there was a pretty lengthy discussion ("cords" above ceiling) about whether a power cord for a TV, projector, etc is in fact a flexible cord covered by the prohibitions in NEC 400.8. The arguement being that power cords are UL listed differently than flexible cords and thus not prohibited above suspended ceilings. After 105 thread responses, I'm not sure there was any resolution to the debate.

Clarifying this issue sure would go far into the discussion about whether or not you can plug a ceiling mounted projector to an above ceiling receptacle.

Does anyone have any further insight into this conundrum and whether or not there is any code activity to clarify the issue?

IMO it would depend, entirely on weather it is resi. or commercial.

 

[jtinge]

At Mike Holts seminar he said that "power cords" to equipment fell under a different UL listing (found in the back of the NEC) and do not apply to the flexible cords article. And that Yes they can be installed and plugged in to a receptacle above a drop ceiling. IMO it relates to going out and installing loose stock seoo cord to fixtures/ recepts /equipment above that ceiling.

I understand the point Mike was trying to make and I have shared that perperspective with my collegues. They, however, were not swayed by his explanation. They argured that the UL 817 standard for cord sets and power cords describes a cord set as "a length of flexible cord assembled with and attachment plug...". The use of "flexible cord" to describe cord sets is why they feel 400.8 applies to UL 817 listed cords sets.

I think this will continue to be debated as long as "flexible cord" is used in the UL 817 standard without clarification as to it applicability to 400.8 or until the NEC is clarified as to it applicability to UL 817 listed cord sets.

Until that happens, I will agree with my collegues and consider cords sets powering TV's, projectors, or other equipment the same as flexible cords and not permit them to be plugged in to receptacles located above drop ceilings based on 400.8.

Looking forward to a proposal to clarify this issue in a future code revision.

 

[mwm1752]

The flexible cord that comes attached with the appliance should not be considered as fixed wiring. The drop ceiling would have to be accessible and not part of a plenum. Would this be any difference as a small attic or crawlspace area you may not be able to climb into but has an access hole? IMHO No as applied to the appliance flexible cord. Quite a few AHU have access only to remove the unit in drop ceilings. Jacuzzi tubs have small spaces underneath with cord connected motors. Now, If any of the cord would pass through a framing member my opinion would change.

 

[Ragin Cajun]

Allow me to tack on another case for plug-in cords above a lay-in ceiling.

I have at least one client who manufactures and/or sells lighting fixtures. They have "show rooms" that feature their products. They change layouts, fixtures, ceilings, etc. often. They presently use plug cords to facilitate the frequent changeovers. They have their own staff of craftmen to do the changeovers. I look at this application as "temporary" lighting.

Comments?

Thanks,

RC

 

[iwire]

The flexible cord that comes attached with the appliance should not be considered as fixed wiring.

I do not think anyone is saying a cord attached to an appliance is 'fixed wiring'.

 

[iwire]

Allow me to tack on another case for plug-in cords above a lay-in ceiling.

I have at least one client who manufactures and/or sells lighting fixtures. They have "show rooms" that feature their products. They change layouts, fixtures, ceilings, etc. often. They presently use plug cords to facilitate the frequent changeovers. They have their own staff of craftmen to do the changeovers. I look at this application as "temporary" lighting.

Comments?

Thanks,

RC

Sounds like a code violation to me, I would suggest they change over to a 'Re-loc' type wiring system.

 

[Ragin Cajun]

Sounds like a code violation to me, I would suggest they change over to a 'Re-loc' type wiring system.

Problem is these fixtures are so new that "re-loc" is not an option or available.

RC

 

[jtinge]

As I was discussing this with a collegue, he pointed out that he believed a reason that cords set and power cords are not allowed to route through the suspended ceiling to an above ceiling receptacle was that you couldn't see the entire length of the cord set to verify its condition like you can for a typical cord and plug mounted device you plug in to a wall mounted receptacle.

Another reason being that with part of the cord set hidden above the suspended ceiling, without lifting ceiling tiles you can't determine if it is plugged into an above ceiling receptacle or into some creative branch circuit extension using extension cords as the wiring method.

Anyone familar with these arguements as reasons for not allowing cord sets to connect to a receptacle above the suspsended ceiling?

 

[cowboyjwc]

Some of the reasons are, you are in a non conditioned space and the cord is going to dry out and crack as cord does. Also in many commercial and industrial properties (admit it or not) there is vermin above the ceilings that for some reason love the taste of that stuff. And then of course you are correct that no one is seeing or looking for the cord going bad until something happens.

 

[petersonra]

I think it is mostly that some people don't like cord at all. It is going to be tough to get the CMP responsible for this to get out of 1930's thinking. Modern cord is at least as resilient as NM and we allow that in walls and other spaces where it is subject to vermin and drying out and damage that cannot be seen.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I think it is mostly that some people don't like cord at all. It is going to be tough to get the CMP responsible for this to get out of 1930's thinking. Modern cord is at least as resilient as NM and we allow that in walls and other spaces where it is subject to vermin and drying out and damage that cannot be seen.

And you will find it damaged and eaten from time to time too. That's why some jurisdictions don't allow it.

 

[jtinge]

Thanks for all the insight. Always nice to have lucid background info when I have to explain why I am enforcing a code section one way vs. another.


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[electrofelon]

In my opinion the NFPA / NEC see it differently.

There are many code sections that clearly go beyond the outlet.

Ok. Ill bite: How about some examples? Note that my comment is referring to factory, consumer equipment like you would get at sprawl mart, not a field made and installed cord for chapter 4 or 6 equipment......

IMO it would depend, entirely on weather it is resi. or commercial.

Oh? What code sections would you cite to support that comment, especially considering the code pretty much doesnt use the words "residential" and "commercial" (Ok maybe 334.12(A)(2) would provide some very weak case law....)