Flexible cords and receptacles above suspended ceilings

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jtinge said:
Just reviewing a few past threads regarding receptacles above suspended ceilings, which everyone seems to agree is permitted. However, there was a consensus opinion that they couldn't be used for anything other than temporary power for tools BECAUSE 400.8 did not permit flexible cords above a suspended ceiling.

Then there was a pretty lengthy discussion ("cords" above ceiling) about whether a power cord for a TV, projector, etc is in fact a flexible cord covered by the prohibitions in NEC 400.8. The arguement being that power cords are UL listed differently than flexible cords and thus not prohibited above suspended ceilings. After 105 thread responses, I'm not sure there was any resolution to the debate.

Clarifying this issue sure would go far into the discussion about whether or not you can plug a ceiling mounted projector to an above ceiling receptacle.

Does anyone have any further insight into this conundrum and whether or not there is any code activity to clarify the issue?
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Mike Holts position is power supply cords have a different listing than portable cords and the power cords are allowed.
 

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I understand Mike's position but the UL 817 standard for power cords and cord sets states these cords are an assembly of a length of flexible cord and attachment plugs.

The use of the term flexible cord allows one to legitimately argue that power cords and cord sets are covered by the 400.8 prohibitions.

Thus the debate rages on.


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petersonra said:
I think it is mostly that some people don't like cord at all. It is going to be tough to get the CMP responsible for this to get out of 1930's thinking. Modern cord is at least as resilient as NM and we allow that in walls and other spaces where it is subject to vermin and drying out and damage that cannot be seen.
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I think that cords should be as resilient as NM, but many are not. I have seen many cords less than 10 years old that have their jackets and wire insulation crumble off if you try to move the cords, but have also seen many others that were much older than that and still in great shape.

I think this may be a cord listing and design issue. I expect that it costs more to make a cord that will last like NM and many manufacturer's don't go to that extra expense.
 
Lets try this as per code --
400.8 Uses Not Permitted
Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following: in which we find --
(2) Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors -- Got it.
Now I am going to show specifically permitted --
400.7 Uses Permitted
(A) Uses . Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for the following:
(8) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and repair, and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection.
Point in case for arguement
(A)Types NM, NMC, and NMS. Types NM, NMC, and NMS cables shall not be permitted as follows
(2) Exposed in dropped or suspended ceilings in other than one- and two-family and multifamily dwellings -- The reason I threw this in was to point out the difference commentary explains for a drop ceiling when access is available is the case of using NM. When no access is available NM is not restricted in use for the "other than".
IMHO The same should be considered when 400.7(A)(8) specifically permts the use of cords for appliances having access an proper listings.
 
mwm1752 said:
Lets try this as per code --
400.8 Uses Not Permitted
Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following: in which we find --
(2) Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors -- Got it.
Now I am going to show specifically permitted --
400.7 Uses Permitted
(A) Uses . Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for the following:
(8) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and repair, and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection.
Point in case for arguement
(A)Types NM, NMC, and NMS. Types NM, NMC, and NMS cables shall not be permitted as follows
(2) Exposed in dropped or suspended ceilings in other than one- and two-family and multifamily dwellings -- The reason I threw this in was to point out the difference commentary explains for a drop ceiling when access is available is the case of using NM. When no access is available NM is not restricted in use for the "other than".
IMHO The same should be considered when 400.7(A)(8) specifically permts the use of cords for appliances having access an proper listings.
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Now read what you highlighted again. It says that you can cord and plug connect equipment that is listed to be to be installed that way. Where does it say that it can be installed above a suspended ceiling.
 
The point being that the non uses section does not apply for such equipment -- AHU for example are mounted above dropped ceilings are specific to the use : the cord attached is not restricted to the non use section due to the specific install of the appliance. --

Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:
rewording
Since specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables can be used for the following
 
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Appliance. Utilization equipment, generally other than industrial, that is normally built in standardized sizes or types and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or more functions such as clothes washing, air conditioning, food mixing, deep frying, and so forth.

Based on the NEC's definition of Appliance, would the cord connected power supply located above the drop ceiling be considered an appliance?

Would it need to be listed for use above the drop ceiling to permit the power cord to be used above the drop ceiling?

What if the power supply was located below the drop ceiling but plugged into a receptacle above the drop ceiling?
 
Seems it would be easier to just make it a violation to install a receptacles above a layin or suspended ceiling. That would resolve quite a bit of issues just by itself.
 
jtinge said:
Appliance. Utilization equipment, generally other than industrial, that is normally built in standardized sizes or types and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or more functions such as clothes washing, air conditioning, food mixing, deep frying, and so forth.

Based on the NEC's definition of Appliance, would the cord connected power supply located above the drop ceiling be considered an appliance?

Would it need to be listed for use above the drop ceiling to permit the power cord to be used above the drop ceiling?

What if the power supply was located below the drop ceiling but plugged into a receptacle above the drop ceiling?
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"Shall not pass through holes in......."
 
jap said:
Seems it would be easier to just make it a violation to install a receptacles above a layin or suspended ceiling. That would resolve quite a bit of issues just by itself.
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That's a good point since as an inspector, you can put all the receptacles you want above, the ceiling and even if I'm pretty sure what they are for, I can't stop you.
 
jap said:
Seems it would be easier to just make it a violation to install a receptacles above a layin or suspended ceiling. That would resolve quite a bit of issues just by itself.
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One theatre I was in had catwalks installed to get to the mechanical equipment and stage lighting, there were posted emergency exit doors and lighting. But the space was separated from the audience 'house' by a suspended ceiling.

So using your suggestion, receptacles for work lights and tools would not have been allowed. I don't even want to think about telling them the 'lekolites' would need to be hardwired.
 
Once you get catwalks and head clearance I would have to argue that either the nature of the space changed or the suspended ceiling served a very different purpose.
BTW, no cords above the sound shell or the acoustic clouds either!

Tapatalk!
 
cowboyjwc said:
"Shall not pass through holes in......."
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If you accept the argument that the prohibitions of Article 400 don't apply to power cords located above the ceiling, as indicated in the picture, then wouldn't that mean that all of the prohibitions of Article 400 apply to power cords, including "shall not pass through holes in ...."?
 
you could say the same thing if you had a metal building with a 15- 30' ceiling height that Originally had HID or any other devices that may have been cord and plugged to a receptacle.

Then someone comes along and decides to build an office space inside the building with 10' walls and a layin ceiling. Then do all of the Original fixtures that fall within the outline of the office area to the roof then become a code violation?


Hmmmmm,,,,,,,,:angel:
 
jtinge said:
If you accept the argument that the prohibitions of Article 400 don't apply to power cords located above the ceiling, as indicated in the picture, then wouldn't that mean that all of the prohibitions of Article 400 apply to power cords, including "shall not pass through holes in ...."?
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Sorry I was only addressing the final line item. I'm still of the no cords above the ceiling camp.
 
jtinge said:
If you accept the argument that the prohibitions of Article 400 don't apply to power cords located above the ceiling, as indicated in the picture, then wouldn't that mean that all of the prohibitions of Article 400 apply to power cords, including "shall not pass through holes in ...."?
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Wondering when someone would throw in that comment.
The premise for my comments are to drill down for reasoning within the code. For a cord to pass in a concealed location as per holes/studs/sheetrock the listing of the equipment( which includes the cord )would include the install as such( I have never seen that particular type listing). Humidifiers, drain pan pumps, attic fans have cord plug disconnects. An attic space could be considered a type of accessible drop ceiling. The only reason attic's are defined is by a volume space that has certain dimension for hieght & floor sq ft, which triggers access..
 
Very vague

Very vague

mopowr steve said:
At Mike Holts seminar he said that "power cords" to equipment fell under a different UL listing (found in the back of the NEC) and do not apply to the flexible cords article. And that Yes they can be installed and plugged in to a receptacle above a drop ceiling. IMO it relates to going out and installing loose stock seoo cord to fixtures/ recepts /equipment above that ceiling.
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It appears that everybody is trying to define exactly what a 'flexible cord' is. This should not be the debate, as it should be specifically defined in the NEC. I am the AHJ on a military base, and rely on the NEC everyday. I have used Art. 400 as written, without redefining what constitutes a flexible cord. My definition is, 'any plastic coated cord that is flexible'. If the NEC does not intend this definition, then the NEC should redefine it. I don't believe it is up to different AHJ's to provide several different definitions.
 
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