kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I encounter a lot of things that are code violations but not necessarily items of much safety concern, I generally don't even mention them to the owner.
Smaller EGC on 30A circuit
- Thread starter mwr
- Start date
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I encounter a lot of things that are code violations but not necessarily items of much safety concern, I generally don't even mention them to the owner.
So your saying this would be a non-issue if you encountered it?
How about if you found this in your own home? Would you repull 100+ worth of wire to get rid of the #12 egc? Or would you pigtail it to the box and rely on the conduit as your egc and call the 12 supplemental?
I bet lots of contractors here would tell the homeowner it must be changed... after all, sounds like an easy way to add 500 bucks to an invoice.
(again, please forgive me if I sound confrontational, that is not my intent. I have trouble with that on these forums)
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I believe I kind of said it was a non issue if I encountered it (in an existing installation)
I wired my own home when it was new --- don't think there is such thing existing but if I should encounter it would probably leave it unless other changes were to be made anyway that involved pulling different conductors - then I would probably make it right.
I don't like to be that guy that adds things on to the bill, or suggest such upsells - unless there is serious safety issues, but that may be different if I lived in larger population area where I didn't know most of my customer base as well as I do. Besides this can backfire on you - you tell them something isn't right and it will take $500 to make it right - in meantime they get a second opinion and that guy says he will make it right for $400, and maybe doesn't even do what is all needed to make it right:roll:
kbsparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Delmarva, USA
The have smaller sized ECGs in Canada. I wonder if the laws of physics are different, the further North you go?? :blink:
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Some old NM cable had 12 AWG conductors and a 16 AWG EGC. Must have been compliant at the time it was manufactured I would think.
Thanks, that makes good sense. Your all probably wondering why I am making such an issue of this. It because I am stuck between the middle of what I think is right and what my employers feel is right.
I was told not to return with a partner to repull for the circuit. However, I stayed at the job past quitting time and I took the 'liberty' to try to make it right by pigtailing the #12 to the box and outlet as I described without the consent of my employer. I haven't been at this all that long that is why I asked here if that was acceptable at least from a safety and functionality standpoint. (hence my piece meal questions about parallel grounding and choke effect).
I didn't intend on it turning into a code interpretation debate and the only person with their integrity at stake is my employer....not myself.
Thanks.
I was told not to return with a partner to repull for the circuit. However, I stayed at the job past quitting time and I took the 'liberty' to try to make it right by pigtailing the #12 to the box and outlet as I described without the consent of my employer. I haven't been at this all that long that is why I asked here if that was acceptable at least from a safety and functionality standpoint. (hence my piece meal questions about parallel grounding and choke effect).
I didn't intend on it turning into a code interpretation debate and the only person with their integrity at stake is my employer....not myself.
Thanks.
qcroanoke
Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
- Location
- Roanoke, VA.
- Occupation
- Sorta retired........
2008 NEC 314.16 (B) (5) allows for equipment grounds to defy the law of physics when counting wire fill in boxes.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
That is something that you may just have to live with. If in your shoes I would have left it alone if the boss didn't want to do anything about it, now it it were a more serious hazard that may be different, you kind of have to pick your battles based on what is at stake. Doing something about it on your own time may still not be in the best interest to your employer either he may think you are trying to undermine him somehow if he finds out, so I would still leave whatever you do within the scope of your employment. If you truly feel there is an immediate danger then only you can decide if it is worth it to take action as compared to the potential consequences. If this issue is known by your employer and he decides to do nothing about it that should put the burden on him and not you should something go wrong. In order to blame you for anything they pretty much will need to find gross negligence on your part and you have already taken steps to try to make it right so I don't find that to be gross negligence - though it would still need to be proven to a judge or jury if it comes to that.
- Location
- Massachusetts
The installation was done by the company he works for ...........
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Correct, and the boss was aware of the problem and chose not to do anything about it - sounds like it is now his baby.
When you use terms like judges, jurys and gross negligence you have me sweating it that I went out of my boundaries and did something wrong.
I shouldn't have gone out of my scope on this one, but when I saw the homeowners 4 year old putting cloth in the dryer like momma, I felt I wanted to... I just hope my pigtailing idea is not a safety concern later on down the road.
So just out of curiosity, was #12 ever allowed as a egc on a 30A circuit in previous code cycles? Just trying to rationalize it and pretend its a grandfathered installation. How about in Canada where the standards are lower, is #12 allowed on a 30A?
And why is it allowed to derate the egc on motors (or so I am told)?
I shouldn't have gone out of my scope on this one, but when I saw the homeowners 4 year old putting cloth in the dryer like momma, I felt I wanted to... I just hope my pigtailing idea is not a safety concern later on down the road.
So just out of curiosity, was #12 ever allowed as a egc on a 30A circuit in previous code cycles? Just trying to rationalize it and pretend its a grandfathered installation. How about in Canada where the standards are lower, is #12 allowed on a 30A?
And why is it allowed to derate the egc on motors (or so I am told)?
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kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Nothing wrong with your 10AWG pigtail it is the 12 AWG EGC in the raceway that is wrong, but again one compliant method of correcting it is elimination of the conductor and using the raceway as the EGC - that said I wouldn't worry much about it ever causing any problems. Code is not perfect. That is why we have a process to make changes periodically, you are welcome to submit a proposal to make a change regarding this - though it probably will not be all that easy to change what has pretty much been unchanged for a long time now.
SceneryDriver
Senior Member
- Location
- NJ
- Occupation
- Electrical and Automation Designer
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Probably cut it short and cap of tape it off so if it does ever fault inside of the conduit to a ungrounded conductor it wouldn't be a pathway for the fault current, at least I would sleep well doing this.
I started in the industry back when finding #16 EGC's for 15 amp circuits and #14 EGC's for 20 amp circuits was a norm, but it was found that these smaller conductors did pose a risk because they don't have the mass and can heat up faster then larger conductors, and you can always depend upon a breaker to trip in time to protect them in a fault mainly on longer runs, remember available fault current can be several hundred amps and if the run is long it might not reach the instantaneous trip curve of the breaker or fuse, but larger conductors have more mass and take a longer time to heat up so you have more head room to allow the breaker to operate on a fault, this is why you see a #10 allowed to protect up to a 60 amp circuit for a ground fault.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
dude... it's NOT a ground wire.... it's a pull line for you
to pull in a #10 wire with, so you don't have to fish it.
just go freaking do it... or cut the wire off flush with the end
of the conduit, and abandon it in place.
either one is compliant. snip or tug.... but keeping asking
different ways is not going to change this simple fact:
it is not code compliant.
a while back, i was pulling #6's for voltage drop on a loooong
120 volt circuit... and i wanted to use #12 for a ground.
so i asked a question just like you are doing, and when it was
all said and done, pulled two #6 wires in a 3/4" emt, and was
done.
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