CSST Bonding

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don_resqcapt19

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:thumbsup: and :thumbsdown:
Remember that what we are primarily looking at should be surface area, not mass.
The amount of energy required to punch a hole in the material should be more related to the thickness of the material than anything else...I guess I am really thinking more of thermal mass.
 

GoldDigger

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The amount of energy required to punch a hole in the material should be more related to the thickness of the material than anything else...I guess I am really thinking more of thermal mass.
True, lots of thermal mass which should reduce damage from a fractional second surge, but the amount of resistance heating applied to that thermal mass will be related to the resistance, however low it is. And if the voltage drop gets high enough (mega amps?) there could be sparking inside the contact region.
(Just running off at the brain here....)
 

don_resqcapt19

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True, lots of thermal mass which should reduce damage from a fractional second surge, but the amount of resistance heating applied to that thermal mass will be related to the resistance, however low it is. And if the voltage drop gets high enough (mega amps?) there could be sparking inside the contact region.
(Just running off at the brain here....)
That all sounds good, but it still seems to me that with the same amount of energy, the damage would always be worse for the CSST.
 

charlie b

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Just looking at the wall thickness of the two products, I can't see how it would be even physically possible that lighting could damage black pipe easier than the CSST.
I have no facts to offer. But I can say that wall thickness is not the only factor, and it is not likely to be the deciding factor. It is all about metallurgy. Some metals are more susceptible to cracking than others, and some can stretch better than others and return to their original shape without permanent deformation.

 

K8MHZ

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Just looking at the wall thickness of the two products, I can't see how it would be even physically possible that lighting could damage black pipe easier than the CSST.

Take a look at the way lightning protection systems are bonded. They use flat copper strap that is .020-.030 inches thick. Lightning travels on the surface of the conductor. A .025 thick 2" wide copper strap will easily shunt a hit that would fuse open a 2/0 copper wire.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Take a look at the way lightning protection systems are bonded. They use flat copper strap that is .020-.030 inches thick. Lightning travels on the surface of the conductor. A .025 thick 2" wide copper strap will easily shunt a hit that would fuse open a 2/0 copper wire.
That is true, but you are talking about an actual strike. The damage to the CSST has been from remote strikes. If there is a direct strike, it won't make a lot of difference what your gas pipe is made out of.
That issue also has to do with the surface area conductor. Depending on the sizes of the piping and CSST involved, there may not be a lot of difference in the surface area.
 
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don_resqcapt19

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I have no facts to offer. But I can say that wall thickness is not the only factor, and it is not likely to be the deciding factor. It is all about metallurgy. Some metals are more susceptible to cracking than others, and some can stretch better than others and return to their original shape without permanent deformation.
Given what I have read about the issue, I think the wall thickness is the main factor. The damage occurred when lighting induced currents on the CSST jumped from the CSST to another conductive object and the arc energy burnt a hole in the CSST and ignited the escaping gas.
 

GeorgeB

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Just looking at the wall thickness of the two products, I can't see how it would be even physically possible that lighting could damage black pipe easier than the CSST.
Don, as one involved with hydraulics (electro hydraulics), some of what is sold as black pipe isn't very consistent in wall thickness. I've seen new schedule 40 3/8" rupture (leak) at under 200 psi; typical is in the 8000 (yes, thousand) psi range. I'd BET that CSST is far better controlled. Pobody'd nerfect
 

don_resqcapt19

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Don, as one involved with hydraulics (electro hydraulics), some of what is sold as black pipe isn't very consistent in wall thickness. I've seen new schedule 40 3/8" rupture (leak) at under 200 psi; typical is in the 8000 (yes, thousand) psi range. I'd BET that CSST is far better controlled. Pobody'd nerfect
Yes, I understand there is junk product out there. The maintenance department, at a plant I often work at, was buying the cheapest pipe they could buy, but it would not thread properly and they could not make a joint that wouldn't leak.

CSST is very likely much better controlled, but is still is not a product I would put in my house.
 

kwired

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Somebody needs to invent an arc fault gas interrupter.
And get it put into the gas codes as a requirement before it has been perfected, then push for more places of use in future codes while it is still questionable whether it does what the manufacturers say it will do.....I'm not about to invent such a device but if you hear of anyone that does let me know so I can plan where to make some investments:)
 

renosteinke

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Well, Don, that's quite an interesting study.

I note that they only used #6 for the bonding conductor. Considering the nature of lightning - lots of volts, very few amps - I expect even a much smaller wire would be just as effective.

The study often mentions that "shorter seems to be better," as regards the length of the bonding conductor. I find this to be slightly misleading, and I'll explain my reasoning in a moment.

Finally, the study notes that other sources of transient voltages are outside the scope of the study.

Now, for my take:

I have no objection to using a #6 conductor. There are other considerations, apart from current carrying capacity. For example, the need to stand up to mechanical damage, especially from the gardener.

Since we are assuming the electrical source to be outside the dwelling, "nearest" means to me that the best point is at the gas service, at some point between the gas meter and where the pipe enters the house. In my understanding, routing the conductor inside the house to the point where the CSST begins would be 'farther' from the source of the current.

Yet, were one to want to add some CSST at a future date, I see no issues with running the bond wire to and convenient panel - and sizing the bond wire smaller, if the EGC to that panel is also smaller. Perhaps we want code language to tell us to size the bond wire to the EGC of the supply, but in no case need it be larger than #6 (language like we use for the GEC elsewhere).

Which brings us to addressing other causes of these pinholes in CSST. Let's face it, we are getting some mighty high transients from various items inside the house. Electronics, frequency drives, induction heating - all these things that were once only of concern to industry are now showing up in our homes. These transients are being backfed into the power grid- a matter of concern to PoCos. I can see where bonding the CSST at the service end will serve to 'drain' any transients that might otherwise build up a charge on the CSST.

Finally, I wonder if the CSST problems are greater in those areas that also have "stray voltage" issues. That is, could the pinholes be caused by obsolete 'ground neutral return' power grids?
 

GoldDigger

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I take issue with the "higher voltage, lower current" starting point for analysis.
The currents can be enormous, even compared to bolted fault currents from services.
But the times that current flows are small even when compared to a small fraction of a 60 Hz cycle.
A corollary of this is that most of the voltage drop will result from inductance, at least up to the point that the conductor vaporizes.
A smaller conductor will vaporize sooner, and because of its higher inductance will be more likely to cause current to jump off the conductor to an alternate path. Even insulation will not help this much.
Now, this part of the discussion applies mostly to direct strike current.
But induced currents will also be very high frequencies and have quite a few similarities. Here too inductance is more important than resistance in sizing the conductors.

Tapatalk!
 

renosteinke

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I suppose it's all relative.

It appears that lightning is considered to have tens of millions of volts, yet "only" tens of thousands of amps.

Induction, impedence are creatures of AC. Lightning is typically seen as three or four nearly instantaneous (milliseconds apart) DC impulses of opposite polarity. It's beyond my knowledge to say exactly when DC becomes AC. Electrons I understand; I'm not quite sure what are the "positrons" mentioned in some lightning literature.

I am not convinced that all other possible causes of these CSST pinholes have been accounted for. "Pinholes." in other contexts, in my experience have always been tied to corrosion over a period of time. Call me cynical, but part of me wonders what role is played by currents flowing through the earth - and that's more of a PoCo creation than anything else.

How to answer? Well ... where are there more issues with CSST? In places with lots of lightning, or places with stray voltage issues?
 

GoldDigger

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DC never becomes AC, but pulsed or otherwise time varying DC can be divided up for the purpose of calculations into a constant DC offset and the sum of an infinite number of sine/cosine waves of different, not necessarily harmonic frequencies.
Another approach, seen on oscilloscopes in class and labs, is to take the voltage step function and solve the differential equation involving resistance and inductance to find the current as a function of time.

Tapatalk!
 

Galt

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Flash shield

Flash shield

There's a fairly new piping system called flash shield. It has a braided shield in the covering. I've worked on a wide variety of things damaged by lightning. It can do some unbelievable things. Seems like the most damage occurs when it jumps from one thing to another.
 

GoldDigger

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+1
Where it jumps from one point to another is damaging for two reasons:
1. The current is concentrated at that point, and
2. The high voltage across the arc concentrates the energy even further.
See Arc Flash for more details. :happyyes:

Tapatalk!
 
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