Automotive Wiring

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delectric123

Senior Member
Location
South Dakota
Are there any Codes or Standards on automotive wiring? I'm frequently involved with agricultural equipment on the farms I do work at, anything from troubleshooting, to adding a headlight. And I'd espescially like to know how the rules on overcurrent protection are. I know one thing, things are done differently then a NEC installation.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Are there any Codes or Standards on automotive wiring? I'm frequently involved with agricultural equipment on the farms I do work at, anything from troubleshooting, to adding a headlight. And I'd espescially like to know how the rules on overcurrent protection are. I know one thing, things are done differently then a NEC installation.

There are automotive engineering forums out there. I don't recall the names but they should be easy to find.
 

Jeffrey456

Member
Location
Melbourne
Certain two facts on this unequivocally the best we have all had. Each code in the automotive cabling plan represents a power source, device to be powered, switching mechanism, electric conductor or electric ground.


 

xformer

Senior Member
Location
Dallas, Tx
Occupation
Master Electrician
Are there any Codes or Standards on automotive wiring? I'm frequently involved with agricultural equipment on the farms I do work at, anything from troubleshooting, to adding a headlight. And I'd espescially like to know how the rules on overcurrent protection are. I know one thing, things are done differently then a NEC installation.

I dont know about exact codes, but for a headlight, I would use red for positive and black for the negative...
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Codes? I doubt it. There probably are guides for good engineering practice, and I'd assume the SAE wrote them. I think most things are down to being sensible, for instance, don't run a 20a blower over 18g wire
So, when I skinned a wire with my teeth in the middle of the night on the side of the road in my '71 Ford van, jammed one end under a fuse and twisted the other end around the 12V coil terminal to get it going again, I wasn't violating any code? :D
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Are there any Codes or Standards on automotive wiring? I'm frequently involved with agricultural equipment on the farms I do work at, anything from troubleshooting, to adding a headlight. And I'd espescially like to know how the rules on overcurrent protection are. I know one thing, things are done differently then a NEC installation.


Just because there are no codes doesn't mean there couldn't be liability.

May want to check with your insurance and see if you can get covered if you do a lot of this sort of work.
 

delectric123

Senior Member
Location
South Dakota
So excuse me for using the wrong word..."Codes":roll:. I guess I could surf the web on information, but if there's somebody knowledgeable about this on the forum it would be worth a lot. My biggest concern is what the allowable ampacity of wire is in automotive wiring. Seems to me 16 AWG is commonly used for 15 amps.
 
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delectric123

Senior Member
Location
South Dakota
Just because there are no codes doesn't mean there couldn't be liability.

May want to check with your insurance and see if you can get covered if you do a lot of this sort of work.
Note in the OP I said agricultural. Tractors, loaders...etc. A lot less red tape in the rural areas, unless you've got a really hard up fellow. Also, I'm part owner of this farming operation.
 
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growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
My biggest concern is what the allowable ampacity of wire is in automotive wiring. Seems to me 16 AWG is commonly used for 15 amps.

I don't see a problem with that. They are only running a few feet in length, soldered connections and protected by fast blowing fuses. I think #16 is rated for 15 amps under the right conditions.

The only reason we can't use or protect 16 AWG at 15 amps is because the NEC says we can't.

I would worry more about the insulation of the wire that you are going to use. A lot of farm equipment wiring may be exposed to sunlight or high temps (motor area )or even a bit of abuse.
 

delectric123

Senior Member
Location
South Dakota
I don't see a problem with that. They are only running a few feet in length, soldered connections and protected by fast blowing fuses. I think #16 is rated for 15 amps under the right conditions.

The only reason we can't use or protect 16 AWG at 15 amps is because the NEC says we can't.

I would worry more about the insulation of the wire that you are going to use. A lot of farm equipment wiring may be exposed to sunlight or high temps (motor area )or even a bit of abuse.

Thats what I use.
http://www.waytekwire.com/products/1454/Automotive-Cross-Link-Wire/
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
The question on the table is what standards apply to automotive wiring. I don't think OP wants to come on here and debate every little tad of work he needs to do on a tractor. He wants to do things right the first time; that is to be commended.

There are automotive engineering forums out there.

And here's a good place to start for publications & standards: http://standards.sae.org/
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I owned and operated an automotive repair facility that specialized in automotive, marine and heavy equipment wiring.

There are no codes. Some states require a license to work on licensed vehicles. Over current protection is not the same as dictated by the NEC. The type of conductor is different. Fine stranded wire with very flexible insulation.

I did the above for 20 years. PM me if you need any specific info. I also have books and schematics going back to the late 60's.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
I owned and operated an automotive repair facility that specialized in automotive, marine and heavy equipment wiring.

There are no codes. Some states require a license to work on licensed vehicles. Over current protection is not the same as dictated by the NEC. The type of conductor is different. Fine stranded wire with very flexible insulation.

I did the above for 20 years. PM me if you need any specific info. I also have books and schematics going back to the late 60's.

I think we all agree there are no codes.

But standards are another thing - best practices. He just wants to do good work. If a standard says that for headlights it's this size conductor stranded n strands y insulation and slow blow fuse or (what do you call those ceramic things in a car?)... then I think that's what he's looking for.

Wiring a tractor wrong can not only cause downtime and make him look incompetent, it can cause fire and collateral damage. He has a fiduciary duty to do good work.

I think he's being very diligent in looking for standards/ best practices, even though the FBI is not going to come inspect his work.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I think we all agree there are no codes.

But standards are another thing - best practices. He just wants to do good work. If a standard says that for headlights it's this size conductor stranded n strands y insulation and slow blow fuse or (what do you call those ceramic things in a car?)... then I think that's what he's looking for.

Wiring a tractor wrong can not only cause downtime and make him look incompetent, it can cause fire and collateral damage. He has a fiduciary duty to do good work.

I think he's being very diligent in looking for standards/ best practices, even though the FBI is not going to come inspect his work.

There are no standards as far as I know other than that set forth by the manufacturer, and they vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Using headlights for example, the conductor size for the exact same loads will vary not only from maker to maker, but from one type of equipment to the other. It's whatever the engineer decided would work for the least amount of money.

All one needs to do is look at a book with automotive wiring diagrams. The wire sizes are pretty much haphazard and are very small. I repaired many vehicles that burned do to factory wiring being overloaded and catching fire.

The most important thing is to use wiring designed for automotive use. It's not marked. You just have to get it from a decent auto parts store. That wiring is designed with flexibility and vibration resistance in mind. Using any kind of premises wiring in an automotive environment, especially on agricultural equipment, will have not have a long life. Do not use THHN or anything like that.

I can also tell you from experience that crimped connectons don't last long unless they are metered and provide a cold weld type connection. Otherwise soldering is required. I made lots of money years ago fixing failed crimped connectors.

I also hand built many wiring harnesses. If I was a bit unsure of size, I just used the same 310 basics one would used in a factory. That usually provided for a conductor at least a size or two over.

As far as best practices go, that will vary from person to person. I had much higher standards than any other automotive repair facility in the area. I was also the only non-dealership facility that was allowed to do electrical work on dealer owned or owned by the dealer's customers. But all I did was electrical.

Very important is to get all the wiring diagrams you can. I can't stress that enough. If I was working on a something I didn't have a diagram for, I reverse engineered it and drew up my own from what was there. I kept all of them for future reference. I even have a diagram for a 1959 Lincoln with a Skyliner type drop top on microfilm.

In 1990 I started working at a Chrysler dealership where I specialized in electrical, but did whatever it took to get a paycheck. I can tell you from first hand experience that you can throw any idea of standard wiring right out the door. Let's use doors for instance. Between the door and the body of a car is a bunch of wires for the window, mirrors, etc. GM started out using large diameter wires thinking bigger was better. MoPar never did. They always used as small a conductor as possible. I fixed hundreds of the large GM conductors and maybe a handful of the smaller MoPar ones. GM finally realized their error and started using smaller wire.

I have seen and repaired the results of engineers using undersized connectors. Like 1/4 inch spades for headlight control boards and blower motor modules and resistors. Many failures resulting in many design changes. The parameters are always changing, so it's almost impossible to have 'standards.'
 
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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Here is a list of commonly used wire colors for cars, but often not followed.

Red - Hot at all times if connected to the battery, otherwise it could be anything.

Orange - Hot at all times

Pink - Gages

Yellow - Drivers TS

Green - Passenger TS

White - load side of brake light switch

Then are are many more with solid or solid with stripes of various colors that could be anything.
 

delectric123

Senior Member
Location
South Dakota
Thanks for all the great responses.:thumbsup:
I often hear of anything from a pump to a semi tractor burning off because off an electrical fire. It makes me wonder if not a lot of them wouldn't have started if there would be stricter wiring practices, like the NFPA does for occupancy wiring. But I guess life is full of rules and regulations the way it is.
 

delectric123

Senior Member
Location
South Dakota
Here is a list of commonly used wire colors for cars, but often not followed.

Red - Hot at all times if connected to the battery, otherwise it could be anything.

Orange - Hot at all times

Pink - Gages

Yellow - Drivers TS

Green - Passenger TS

White - load side of brake light switch

Then are are many more with solid or solid with stripes of various colors that could be anything.

Thankfully, I haven't had to deal with many issues on cars. And on that newer farm machinery with up to 1 1/2" thick harnesses, if a harness goes bad we usually just replace it.

Yes, without wiring diagrams you can end up going in circles.
Trailer wiring is usually pretty a standard color coding. I've learned the hard way that white is usually negative or "ground".
 
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