Crimp terminal installation - what's wrong with this picture?

[K8MHZ]

Did I find this thread useful and informative? Definitely. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

Will I change my crimping habits? I don't know. I can tell you I will at least give the technique a try.

 

[xformer]

Do you see anything wrong in this photo?

Going out on a limb here... the crimp connector is only rated for one conductor?

 

[K8MHZ]

Do you see anything wrong in this photo?

I don't think it's possible to get 2 #12's in a 12-10 lug. It looks like 2 #14's, and the lug is only listed for #12-10.

I tried to find some specifics about the number of conductors allowed, but couldn't find any.

 

[gadfly56]

Hi Peter, holding the packaging in my hand, I agree with you that, in my opinion, the graphics could be better. Its rather like the famous photo where some people see two faces and others see a vase.

While some of us see a vase between two faces .

 

[xformer]

While some of us see a vase between two faces .

while even more of us don't even look at the pic or any instructions... lol

 

[GeorgeB]

I don't think it's possible to get 2 #12's in a 12-10 lug. It looks like 2 #14's, and the lug is only listed for #12-10.

But 2 #14's equal 1 #11.

Only half in jest; conductor crimp should be fine. Terminator's newly imparted strain relief knowledge would be an issue.

 

[ritelec]

I use them, I do the double crimp technique

BUT

I don't understand how these things are "approved", considering the amount of area in a 12 or 10 cu compared to this thin little forked terminal.

answer to the question?

not approved for double wires, especially red ones.

 

[iwire]

I don't understand how these things are "approved", considering the amount of area in a 12 or 10 cu compared to this thin little forked terminal.

I would say because the NEC ampacity tables are very conservative.

 

[iwire]

If I did this correctly, there should be two attachments to my reply. I just took two photos with my phone showing the front and back of the packaging of the part number WT112M tool in the original photo. This packaging has limited space for writing, however it includes a photo to show the profile of a correctly installed terminal. I'd like to see more detailed instruction on the packaging, however, even with these instructions I'm a proponent of my team that interacts with electricians use opportunities like demonstration classes, wholesale distributor counter days, attending and presenting at trade schools, electrical inspector meeting & other events to show installation instructions like this. Also, Thomas & Betts invested a lot of resources in four trucks, and four dedicated employees to criss-cross the country and focus on lugs, terminals and tooling. Perhaps someone here has seen one of these trucks?

I can assure you, we are trying to get the word out. Packaging, websites, classes, trade show, and counter days do not reach eveyone. This very post at this forum is a new idea. I'm testing the water if you will, to see if manufacturer non-sales oriented information sharing will be accepted.
.

First let me say thank you for your time here, it is nice to hear from someone on your side of the bussness.

I think the instructions you show are a joke. They are trying to be Ikea multilingual instructions. I find them anything but clear.

They certainly do not make clear what you say is required. Trade shows and websites are pretty much worthless on the job.

Pretty sure I have a T&B crimp kit on the job that is all but unlabeled, I will grab some pictures tonight.

 

[DougAles]

First let me say thank you for your time here, it is nice to hear from someone on your side of the bussness.

iwire, thank you for your feedback. I'm glad you took the time to give it.

I think the instructions you show are a joke. They are trying to be Ikea multilingual instructions. I find them anything but clear.

They certainly do not make clear what you say is required.

The specific tool and package WT112M is a legacy (vintage) tool, but well known. I have had discussions with my own company and will be having a meeting in July discussing updating the tooling instrustions to be consistent with the newer terminal tooling like the ERG4001 ratcheting style tool for example as seen here http://www-public.tnb.com/shared/inst/ta04528-tb2.pdf

Pretty sure I have a T&B crimp kit on the job that is all but unlabeled, I will grab some pictures tonight.

We have kits that are labeled like the Sta-Kit, presently on a promotion price (DOUG, stop SELLING darn it!!!) and kits that are unlabeled, so users can fill as they see fit.

Trade shows and websites are pretty much worthless on the job.

I'm struggling with this feedback. Personally, I'm trying to gauge the best method to get information in your hands when you need it. On my LinkedIn profile promote my Ipad and smartphone app, I invite you to join my network, please click here http://bit.ly/link2doug Also, that Thomas & Betts truck I previously mentioned is intended to travel to job sites and end users, and I have developed a NEC 110.3(B) class and received CEU credit but this far from all states. Of the states that are open to 110.3(B) classes I think this class could serve them well. So web, trade shows, distributor events, classes, literature shipped with the tooling, attending trade schools and now online forums. I'm open to your suggestions on how I can do better iwire.

Again iwire, thank you for your ideas and feedback.

 

[meternerd]

I use non-insulated lugs on all of the control panels I build for work. Why? Because you can see that they are crimped on the metal and not just the plastic, they fit better in smaller terminal blocks, they allow more room for two lugs under one terminal, sometimes SIS switchboard wire insulation won't fit into the plastic barrel, the box of 100 is a lot smaller and you get to use the crimper that has the little pointy thing inside. I've seen more than a few of the insulated lugs fall off from improper crimps. But...when I do use insulated lugs, I use the little pointy thing anyway...only one crimper to carry. I know....naughty me!

 

[dereckbc]

In my Industry you would be rudely escorted off the property for that termination. The tooling or crimper is completely unacceptable and poor workmanship. In Telecom requires a ratcheting type tool that embosses die codes to confirm the right die was used. We use a lot of Stacon terminals and expect to see a tool like these used.

 

[PetrosA]

There are a number of good reference sources available online in text format, but I think a video series would be a lot simpler for many of us to understand. It would have been easier for me to understand a lot of what I got from reading from watching a demonstration.

For some reason, much of the world of crimp tools and terminals seems to be written in a very hard to understand way - as though a bunch of antisocial genomic scientists who all failed "Effective Communications 101" were writing a revised edition of the kama sutra for gram negative bacteria. Part of the problem (and it affects all the terminal manufacturers) is the huge number of various terminals made. Cross referencing terminals to acceptable tools can be a daunting task in itself. Then, you have insulated and non-insulated terminals, Nylon, Vinyl, PVC, heat shrink, high temperature, radiation rated etc. How do you ever boil all that down so that your average sparky can understand it?

 

[iwire]

Peter,

I can read instructions just fine if they are sent out.

Pictures to follow later of compleatly unmarked packaging.

 

[mjf]

Thanks for posting. Informative. Honestly, I was never taught proper crimping techniques. I don't do much crimping of anything, but have fortunately (knock, knock) not experienced call backs for failures either.

I would say 98% of the crimping I've done has been uninsulated ground crimps in device and junction boxes. I rarely do that anymore as I've begun to use push in connectors.

 

[Aleman]

Crimp schmimp says I. I think my crimps are solid, and have never used a terminal with the metal in the sleeve for the insulation.
But one of these days I would like to get a real crimper because the pliers like most people have don't put out a nice looking crimp even
though it's functional. One of those fancy ratcheting jobs.

Here's a question regarding crimp connectors? Does anyone besides me use these when hooking up 20 amp receptacles with stranded wire?
As opposed to leaving the stripped insulation attached to the wire, and then wrapping around and under screw. I never liked doing that
so have started crimping these. But it's more work.

 

[Little Bill]

Thank you for your question, allowing me to clarify. The instructions UL provides for performing the terminal testing in UL486A/B are not brand specific.



You are welcome.



If I did this correctly, there should be two attachments to my reply. I just took two photos with my phone showing the front and back of the packaging of the part number WT112M tool in the original photo. This packaging has limited space for writing, however it includes a photo to show the profile of a correctly installed terminal. I'd like to see more detailed instruction on the packaging, however, even with these instructions I'm a proponent of my team that interacts with electricians use opportunities like demonstration classes, wholesale distributor counter days, attending and presenting at trade schools, electrical inspector meeting & other events to show installation instructions like this. Also, Thomas & Betts invested a lot of resources in four trucks, and four dedicated employees to criss-cross the country and focus on lugs, terminals and tooling. Perhaps someone here has seen one of these trucks?

I can assure you, we are trying to get the word out. Packaging, websites, classes, trade show, and counter days do not reach eveyone. This very post at this forum is a new idea. I'm testing the water if you will, to see if manufacturer non-sales oriented information sharing will be accepted.



In my discussions with the person that works at the certified UL testing lab, its not pull-out but vibration and wire movement protection, two additional forms of strain, that the second crimp aids in the performance of the connection. Think of the individual strands of the wire. Take one strand and bend it back and forth a few times in your hand. The strand will soon break. Now put this same force on the insulated portion of the wire. This second crimp over the insulated portion of the wire helps in this manor.


Again iwire, thank you for your taking your time to read and respond to my post.

@ Terminator,

Why do you have a service entrance w/meter on your demo truck?:huh:
Do you meter "borrowed" power and reimburse whom ever is paying/supplying power for your truck?

 

[mgookin]

Crimp terminal installation - what's wrong with this picture?

I'm kind of late to this thread, but isn't damaging the insulation a violation?

 

[DougAles]

@ Terminator,

Why do you have a service entrance w/meter on your demo truck?:huh:
Do you meter "borrowed" power and reimburse whom ever is paying/supplying power for your truck?

Hi Bill, thank you for the question. The items on the truck are not hot. They are displaying items we manufacture. I guess that?s not entirely correct. The tooling batteries are charged for real world demonstrations, the LED lighting is live to help people see the items and the TV is live for presentations.



Has anyone here seen one of the four trucks?

 

[Besoeker]

In my Industry you would be rudely escorted off the property for that termination. The tooling or crimper is completely unacceptable and poor workmanship. In Telecom requires a ratcheting type tool that embosses die codes to confirm the right die was used. We use a lot of Stacon terminals and expect to see a tool like these used.

Similar for us.
We use a ratchet in our work. They are registered and each has a serial number. Our electrical inspector keeps a register of those - and much else besides.
They are regularly inspected and tested on a gauge that measures the strength of the crimped joint.