Crimp terminal installation - what's wrong with this picture?

[pjholguin]

Some specifications call for terminals, so having the fancy ones are nice and produce a quality crimp...time after time. :happyyes:

As using stranded wire on a terminal screws is just screwy. And no I don't, I order receptacles that have the compersion plates for stranded wire...works great and real time saver. JMHO

But one of these days I would like to get a real crimper because the pliers like most people have don't put out a nice looking crimp even
though it's functional. One of those fancy ratcheting jobs.

Here's a question regarding crimp connectors? Does anyone besides me use these when hooking up 20 amp receptacles with stranded wire?
As opposed to leaving the stripped insulation attached to the wire, and then wrapping around and under screw. I never liked doing that
so have started crimping these. But it's more work.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
The specific tool and package WT112M is a legacy (vintage) tool, but well known. I have had discussions with my own company and will be having a meeting in July discussing updating the tooling instrustions to be consistent with the newer terminal tooling like the ERG4001 ratcheting style tool for example as seen here http://www-public.tnb.com/shared/inst/ta04528-tb2.pdf ...

You can update the instructions all you want, but the chances of an electrician reading the instructions for that type of crimp connection are slim to none

We have the same issue with the tool selection. The UL Guide information says the crimps have to be terminated using the tool specified by the connector manufacturer. Most of the connector manufacturer's also have their own line of crimp tools and, of course only specify the use of their tool.
To the user the tools appear identical and we will use you tool with other brands or connectors or the other way around.

As far as the strain relief crimp, I don't think I have ever seen that done in the field, even when the connector had the metal sleeve designed for the purpose.

I am one of those people that believe that the indenter crimp is a better connection and if I don't really need the insulation value of the insulated connector I will use the indenter crimp on the insulated connector. I don't think I have ever seen the conductor pull out of a connector that has been crimped using the indenter, but have seen in many times when the crimp was made using the crimp intended for use with the insulated connector. I have seen this on both field and factory installed connectors....maybe that happened because the strain relief crimp was not made. Most of the time I just use the uninsulated connectors to avoid this issue, plus they are cheaper


By the way, I am not a fan of 110.3(B) because of UL's ridiculous position that all manufactured supplied information is a 110.3(B) instruction, but this is the type of application where 110.3(B) has merit. It is my opinion that the only instructions that should be 110.3(B) are those that are actually found in the listing standard of the testing specifications, but when you have light fixture manufacturer's telling you what brand of tools to use to install the fixture and UL saying that those instructions are 110.3(B) they have gone way over the edge.

 

[mgookin]

Only a very small part of those instructions are UL reviewed & mandatory. The problem for the user is that they don't know what parts are mandatory.

 

[ActionDave]

Confessions of a rogue crimper here. Don't use insulated crimps much, but I do it like the first pic.

 

[GoldDigger]

Only a very small part of those instructions are UL reviewed & mandatory. The problem for the user is that they don't know what parts are mandatory.

The other problem is that although not all of the instructions are (carefully anyway) UL reviewed, UL seems to take the position that they are still mandatory.

 

[PetrosA]

Maybe posters like this in supply houses would help convince people to read the instructions?

 

[mgookin]

Maybe posters like this in supply houses would help convince people to read the instructions?

+1:thumbsup:

 

[DougAles]

Maybe posters like this in supply houses would help convince people to read the instructions?

Wow, you took your time to make that. That's very flattering. Thank you PetrosA.

 

[PetrosA]

Wow, you took your time to make that. That's very flattering. Thank you PetrosA.

It probably took me less time than you think. Feel free to use it if you want. I did it more for laughs than anything else.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Only a very small part of those instructions are UL reviewed & mandatory. The problem for the user is that they don't know what parts are mandatory.

UL is on record a number of times stating that every bit of every instruction is 110.3(B).

 

[GoldDigger]

UL is on record a number of times stating that every bit of every instruction is 110.3(B).

What about advertising copy?

 

[iwire]

I ended up taking some pictures and got around to uploading them.

Let me say I am not picking out T&B specifically, it just happens to be what I had on the job.

I can understand why we have a rule like 110.3(B) and I am more than willing to follow it but trying to figure out what the listing and labeling includes out in the field is often pretty tough with all the manufacturers.

Here is the inside lid of my kit, not much useful information.

The kit it self

Here is the top of one of the boxes, what are they for? What size wire? How do they need to be crimped?

The bottom of the same box

I ended up making a crimp on 12 AWG stranded using these in the 10-12 Ins spot as I normally would.

I did the double crimp suggested here and I will admit it has held its shape much better than I expected. It might add the slightest bit of support to the wire.

I might start doing the double crimp and see if I like it.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

What about advertising copy?

UL would probably say that is 110.3(B) also.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
I ended up making a crimp on 12 AWG stranded using these in the 10-12 Ins spot as I normally would.

...

So is that tool on the list from T&B as being suitable for use with their connectors?

Also I have never liked that type of tool and have never let my guys use that type to make a crimp connection. It just does not seem to make near a good of a crimp as the single purpose crimp tools.

 

[iwire]

So is that tool on the list from T&B as being suitable for use with their connectors?

I posted pictures of all T&B chose to tell me.

How do I know if it is on the list or not?

Also I have never liked that type of tool and have never let my guys use that type to make a crimp connection. It just does not seem to make near a good of a crimp as the single purpose crimp tools.

I see nothing wrong with the connection in the pictures.

Truthfully I think crimps are just another point of failure and I avoid them as much as a I can.

 

[mgookin]

UL is on record a number of times stating that every bit of every instruction is 110.3(B).

Then they must limit what they consider "instruction" is. They certainly don't care where the warranty service center is, or even that there is one.

When I get product listed they want:
Specifications: voltage/ frequency/ load/ operating environment
Installation & Operating Instructions: to see that there's a safe installation and safe use

They don't care about 90% of what's in there with respect to best performance, product longevity, warranty terms & processes, etc.

They want it safe. They don't want a fire and they don't want someone electrocuted.

 

[Aleman]

Some specifications call for terminals, so having the fancy ones are nice and produce a quality crimp...time after time. :happyyes:

As using stranded wire on a terminal screws is just screwy. And no I don't, I order receptacles that have the compersion plates for stranded wire...works great and real time saver. JMHO

My local supply house never stocks the 20A with the compression terminals. I will have to order some from Grainger or someone. All those terminal crimps are a lot of extra work.

 

[PetrosA]

My local supply house never stocks the 20A with the compression terminals. I will have to order some from Grainger or someone. All those terminal crimps are a lot of extra work.

By the time you order a box or two of receptacles from Grainger, you'd spend enough money to get yourself a $350 ratcheting crimp tool Can't your supply house order you a few boxes of receptacles with compression plates? If not, I'd be looking for another supplier...

 

[kwired]

You can update the instructions all you want, but the chances of an electrician reading the instructions for that type of crimp connection are slim to none

You don't see people read the instructions that come with a screwdriver before they use it? What has this world come to?

UL is on record a number of times stating that every bit of every instruction is 110.3(B).

An increasing number of instructions are losing meaning by either translation, and or lack of proofreading before making final copy.

I posted pictures of all T&B chose to tell me.

Not exactly sure I understand what you mean with this sentence...but pretty much everything you had in photos was T&B, but that crimper said 3M right on the tool, I think that was what prompted the question of whether it was approved for the devices in question.

 

[PetrosA]

You don't see people read the instructions that come with a screwdriver before they use it? What has this world come to?

Which is exactly why I don't like to let other guys use my impact with a phillips bit in it. Each and every time I do, I hear "Bftftftftftftftftftftftftftftftftftftftftftftftft" as the bit spins in the head of the screw. You'd think common sense would tell you not to spin a bit in the head of a screw, but nooooooo.