Liability insurance, frozen pipes in a hot tub

[jaylectricity]

So last winter one of my GC customers was adding a deck to a house and the disconnect for the outdoor hot tub was in the way. So part of the job was to move the disconnect away from where the deck would attach to the house. I disconnected everything so they could build the deck and left it disconnected until a day when the deck was in place and I could plan the new route for the wiring.

When I finally did wire the tub back together I didn't turn the breaker on. Not sure if temperatures outside had hit freezing before or after that day. I filed a claim just as a means to get some professional assistance on the matter. She's a good customer so I want her to be happy, but it's unclear who is at fault here.

The contract was between her and the GC. There was no wording in there about the tub other than we would be moving the disconnect. She thinks I'm at fault for leaving the breaker off. There's a chance the damage was already done by then. We never looked inside the tub to even know if there was water in it. Also I do not have a contract with the GC. We have an implied oral contract. If the work goes above and beyond what he estimated, he pays me anyway. In return, I try to make sure he can make some money on the electrical part of the job.

Could it be her fault that she didn't make provisions for having her hot tub serviced? We're not hot tub technicians. Or do you think the GC is at fault for not planning for it? Or do you think I'm at fault? Just looking for opinions.

 

[RLyons]

I'm going to go with...

If the GC knew the temperatures where going to fall below freezing before you where going to be called back It's on him.

No different than if a place was gutted and the pipes froze.

 

[jaylectricity]

Thanks for the votes on the poll so far. I know it's the middle of the night, but it's the only time I can sit down at the computer and put stuff out there to the internet.

 

[mgookin]

You're welcome.

Planning is the responsibility of the GC.

 

[petersonra]

There is a good case that can be made that if you made the decision on your own to remove the heat so the pipes froze then you have at least some liability.

If you received directions from the GC that as part of your work you should do this it seems like the GC has the liability.

In any case, it is on the GC if he is paying you. He may eventually come to you for it, but he is the primary responsible party to the HO.

 

[gadfly56]

I'm going to suggest the GC is at fault. Coordination is his responsibility. Obviously, if the electric is being relocated it's getting turned off. As long as he was aware that that's the condition you left it in, it was up to him to call you back lickety split if he thought freeze damage was a possibility, or make other arrangements to protect the HO's property.

 

[readydave8]

I didn't vote in poll, I'm trying to see this from everyone's perspective.

I'd feel bad if it happened on my job, but would not feel 100% responsible. Maybe 20%, should be less but electricians are usually smarter than HO's and GC's.

 

[Sierrasparky]

If it was known that the power was going to be cut without provisions to provide temporary power then it would be the problem of the GC for not properly draining the tub or providing freeze protection.

Too me it boils down to what the EC's scope of work was.

I would not turn on the unit unless I was given the OK and the tub was filled. I would not want to be the person responsible for the unit burning up a heater or pump. I would only check that there is power and that is that.

 

[jaylectricity]

If it was known that the power was going to be cut without provisions to provide temporary power then it would be the problem of the GC for not properly draining the tub or providing freeze protection.

Too me it boils down to what the EC's scope of work was.

I would not turn on the unit unless I was given the OK and the tub was filled. I would not want to be the person responsible for the unit burning up a heater or pump. I would only check that there is power and that is that.

Yeah, there was no go-ahead for he power.

I'm almost sure my insurance company is going to reject the claim. Or if they pay it, they'll go after the GC's insurance company.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Yeah, there was no go-ahead for he power.

I'm almost sure my insurance company is going to reject the claim. Or if they pay it, they'll go after the GC's insurance company.

I'd be surprised if they do not pay first then figued it out. Then they have reason to jack your rates up.
Hope they don't.

 

[mgookin]

Curious: How much is the claim? Is this in-ground hot tub or portable?

Interesting how someone makes a claim against you when you did not work for them. You worked for the GC.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Yeah, there was no go-ahead for he power.

I'm almost sure my insurance company is going to reject the claim. Or if they pay it, they'll go after the GC's insurance company.

Curious: How much is the claim? Is this in-ground hot tub or portable?

Interesting how someone makes a claim against you when you did not work for them. You worked for the GC.

Yea that is the way it can work out. However the OP stated he contacted his Insurance.

 

[__dan]

You would have to notify your own insurer only because of an incident with a potential future claim. Your insurer or agent may then advise you.

IANAL but I think the claim sequence would be for the homeowner to claim on their homeowner's policy which may have some coverage for work done by contractors. Then the homeowner's insurance could potentially go after the contractor's insurance, the GC's and yours.

Two things, they may need a legal basis for doing so, like negligence or code violations, and for less than catastrophic loss it may not be worth the insurer's time to chase after a few thousand in damages from the next party in line. The homeowner's insurance could be first in line for claims. After that it's a grey area (imo) because the owner provides the circumstances and environment under which the contractors work.

That point becomes really easy to obfuscate, who was supposedly responsible for freeze protection or draining the hot tub during the time the power was disconnected by the owner's instructions to move the power wiring.

The cost of finding the answers to these questions could easily be more expensive for the insurer than just paying the claim and moving on.

Whatever you do, do not feel guilty or take the blame. Only your insurer may take blame and pay on your behalf. You cannot take blame for your insurer to pay, they would want to make that finding for themselves. It is not clear who is at fault, but it may be clear whose insurer is first in line for the claim.

 

[Sierrasparky]

You would have to notify your own insurer only because of an incident with a potential future claim. Your insurer or agent may then advise you.

IANAL but I think the claim sequence would be for the homeowner to claim on their homeowner's policy which may have some coverage for work done by contractors. Then the homeowner's insurance could potentially go after the contractor's insurance, the GC's and yours.

Two things, they may need a legal basis for doing so, like negligence or code violations, and for less than catastrophic loss it may not be worth the insurer's time to chase after a few thousand in damages from the next party in line. The homeowner's insurance could be first in line for claims. After that it's a grey area (imo) because the owner provides the circumstances and environment under which the contractors work.

That point becomes really easy to obfuscate, who was supposedly responsible for freeze protection or draining the hot tub during the time the power was disconnected by the owner's instructions to move the power wiring.

The cost of finding the answers to these questions could easily be more expensive for the insurer than just paying the claim and moving on.

Whatever you do, do not feel guilty or take the blame. Only your insurer may take blame and pay on your behalf. You cannot take blame for your insurer to pay, they would want to make that finding for themselves. It is not clear who is at fault, but it may be clear whose insurer is first in line for the claim.

Just because something happens on a jobsite does not mean that you need to report it to your insurance. That is for Gen liability. Otherwise the insurance would be flooded with potential claims. You have the obligation once a claim has been made to you.
Work injuries are different. If someone is injured a report needs to be made. In this case we don't even know if the owner has made a complaint to the EC.

 

[Fulthrotl]

So last winter one of my GC customers was adding a deck to a house and the disconnect for the outdoor hot tub was in the way. So part of the job was to move the disconnect away from where the deck would attach to the house. I disconnected everything so they could build the deck and left it disconnected until a day when the deck was in place and I could plan the new route for the wiring.

When I finally did wire the tub back together I didn't turn the breaker on. Not sure if temperatures outside had hit freezing before or after that day. I filed a claim just as a means to get some professional assistance on the matter. She's a good customer so I want her to be happy, but it's unclear who is at fault here.

The contract was between her and the GC. There was no wording in there about the tub other than we would be moving the disconnect. She thinks I'm at fault for leaving the breaker off. There's a chance the damage was already done by then. We never looked inside the tub to even know if there was water in it. Also I do not have a contract with the GC. We have an implied oral contract. If the work goes above and beyond what he estimated, he pays me anyway. In return, I try to make sure he can make some money on the electrical part of the job.

Could it be her fault that she didn't make provisions for having her hot tub serviced? We're not hot tub technicians. Or do you think the GC is at fault for not planning for it? Or do you think I'm at fault? Just looking for opinions.

if i was directed to disconnect something, i'd disconnect it.
you did what you were told to do.

on the left coast, i'd never consider freezing damage, so i
don't even know if i'd think of it. but people living in frozen
zones think about chit like that.

bottom line is, who told you to disconnect it? they own this.

 

[jim dungar]

bottom line is, who told you to disconnect it? they own this.

Of equal importance, who told you to reconnect? Did they understand that reconnecting did not mean re-energizing?

 

[Pullnwire]

Of equal importance, who told you to reconnect? Did they understand that reconnecting did not mean re-energizing?

I'm assuming the hot tub was mostly empty. I never energize an empty hot tub, water heater, and so on. As a rule of thumb, we never energize any customer equipment unless they are standing there.

IMHO. It was the HO responsibility to winterize her tub. Like she would any other year.

 

[jim dungar]

As a rule of thumb, we never energize any customer equipment unless they are standing there.

IMHO. It was the HO responsibility to winterize her tub. Like she would any other year.

Which is the way I voted.

 

[mjf]

As in most things, communication is key.

 

[GoldDigger]

I'm assuming the hot tub was mostly empty. I never energize an empty hot tub, water heater, and so on. As a rule of thumb, we never energize any customer equipment unless they are standing there.

IMHO. It was the HO responsibility to winterize her tub. Like she would any other year.

If the hot tub was well enough insulated and covered, the normal procedure may well have been to keep it heated rather than winterizing it.

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