Liability insurance, frozen pipes in a hot tub

[Sierrasparky]

If the hot tub was well enough insulated and covered, the normal procedure may well have been to keep it heated rather than winterizing it.

Tapatalk!

Yea but if it was empty there is no way that I would energize it nor be expected to fill it.

 

[iwire]

If it was on when you started and you left it off when you finished I can't see any possible way it is not on you.

Blame the GC?

Really people?

Forget your distaste of GCs and try to look at this without just sticking up for team electrician.

 

[Lectricbota]

If it was on when you started and you left it off when you finished I can't see any possible way it is not on you.

Blame the GC?

Really people?

Forget your distaste of GCs and try to look at this without just sticking up for team electrician.

If I move a disconnect so a GC can build a deck, come back weeks/months later and to hook it up, then it also should have have been my responsibility to winterize her equipment?

You have got to be kidding me.

 

[petersonra]

One of the reasons you bought insurance, even if you do not realize it, is so the insurance company can be the one worrying about these things.

If there is damage and the HO claims you are responsible, just turn it over to your insurance company and let them worry about who pays. They do this for a living. They may pay the HO and just collect from the GC's insurance company.

 

[kwired]

If the hot tub was well enough insulated and covered, the normal procedure may well have been to keep it heated rather than winterizing it.

Tapatalk!

That is kind of the standard practice around here, besides they get used more often in colder weather then they do in hot weather - some people do shut them down in summer because they just don't use it then. Who wants to climb into a "hot" tub in hot weather, that is why you get in the cooler swimming pool.

If it was on when you started and you left it off when you finished I can't see any possible way it is not on you.

I can agree with that, whether it be a hot, refrigerator, or anything else that may be critical to have power restored when work is done.

If I move a disconnect so a GC can build a deck, come back weeks/months later and to hook it up, then it also should have have been my responsibility to winterize her equipment?

You have got to be kidding me.

Seems like a no brainer, but people are either stupid, ignorant, assume too many things, or just have too many other thing to think about and this is not on their minds. Years of experience would probably make most of us at least say something like - you realize this will not be operational during this period? And if it has been off for some time maybe to mention that it will get connected but will not be turned on as we may not know proper startup procedures or if it is ready to be started.


I do agree that if owner is going after someone it should be the GC if you were working for the GC, but that doesn't necessarily mean the GC still can't come after you for compensation if it really is your fault.

 

[GoldDigger]

If I tell the HO that the refrigerator will be unplugged for two weeks, I would not feel any responsibility for the spoiled food whether I plugged it back in or not
Clearly a failure to communicate, and thus possibly the responsibility of the GC who was, I believe, the only one talking to the HO.

Tapatalk!

 

[Sierrasparky]

It looks like its in the hands of the insurance company at this point.

 

[iwire]

If I move a disconnect so a GC can build a deck, come back weeks/months later and to hook it up, then it also should have have been my responsibility to winterize her equipment?

You have got to be kidding me.

Not what I said at all.

I said if I turn it off it is up to me to turn it back on.

 

[__dan]

Not what I said at all.

I said if I turn it off it is up to me to turn it back on.

I can certainly see that side of it, especially if I am the only trade on the job. It not clear if the wiring move was a one day job or disconnect and reconnect at a later date.

If the electrician does not have his own hot tub and is not informed or instructed by the owner regarding the special freeze or winter protection of the equipment, it is easy to see how it could go unnoticed. For assignment of liability, it's a grey area that IMO, can be obfuscated, which most parties will do when they have to pay. I am responsible for the wiring of the equipment but not startup or freeze protection.

You would certainly know that with other trades equipment and other trades on the job you would probably never start up someone else's equipment for new installs or new installs of used equipment. The stuff would blow up or break itself routinely. There are so many variables in the other trades equipment, refrigeration needs the evaporator fan running and right gas pressure, shipping blocks in fans and blowers, sheave adjustments on belt drives, programming ...

I wired this large air turbine air compressor, probably 30 hp, bumped it for rotation, and turned it off at the disconnect and told them to have their mechanical start up check it out. I left them with the caveat that the unit had 12,000+ hours on it. They turned it on and it blew up after a few hours. They knew it could fail and had mounted it up high away from people. The radiator fan did not work and it blew the oil all over the place.. They wanted to blame me but I had covered myself. I told them to get mechanical start up from the guy that sold it to them and the unit looked to be beyond the expected useful life. They did not like that I had done the hazard analysis prior and happened to inform them of something they could have caught prior.

Something similar happened in the last week. I told them to test it on the bench and not at the customer's site on their high available fault current bus. They skated past that but it did not work, did not fail catastrophically. It had a problem that could have been caught while it was on the bench.

It is because of stuff like this that the general rule would be I would turn off or lock off the power disconnect and *never* start up other trades equipment. Even in scheduled shutdowns I would routinely request onsite presence of other trades for their equipment, HVAC guys, building engineers, for them to turn off and turn back on their equipment. The operation of the equipment is beyond the scope of the wiring. The general rule would be I leave the disconnect off for the other trade to start up and checkout their equipment.

 

[GUNNING]

Rut Ro!

Rut Ro!

Why all the discussion. IF the roof leaks it is your responsibility? IF the hot tub freezes it is your responsibility? You do not have control of the job site. That would be beyond your agree upon scope of work. It is plainly the GC that is in control of all conditions. They are it. If there is a failure on the site it is them not the subcontractor. Not you touched it last! It is You are the General Contractor, so you are liable. As for freezing pipes where is the Pool Contractor or Plumber in all this? It is a Rut Ro! and an additional cost to the owner. The electrician is not an expert on pipes or pools just electric.

 

[growler]

Blame the GC?

Really people?

Unless there is a plumber or some guy that doesn't speak english who else can you blame?

 

[growler]

I disconnected everything so they could build the deck and left it disconnected until a day when the deck was in place and I could plan the new route for the wiring.

When I finally did wire the tub back together I didn't turn the breaker on. Not sure if temperatures outside had hit freezing before or after that day.

Both the GC and the electrician could be at fault here. The GC didn't coordinate the job as he should and the electrician didn't bother to ask for information or inform the GC or homeowner that power was restored and the unit was ready for use.

I wouldn't point the finger at any one person. A lack of communication all around.

 

[GoldDigger]

Note that according to the OP the damage may well have taken place before power was again available.

 

[jaylectricity]

Update:

If it was on when you started and you left it off when you finished I can't see any possible way it is not on you.

Blame the GC?

Really people?

Forget your distaste of GCs and try to look at this without just sticking up for team electrician.

"Team electrician" is the first thing I thought as I read through some of the comments and the poll results.

One of the reasons you bought insurance, even if you do not realize it, is so the insurance company can be the one worrying about these things.

If there is damage and the HO claims you are responsible, just turn it over to your insurance company and let them worry about who pays. They do this for a living. They may pay the HO and just collect from the GC's insurance company.

Yep...that's what's happening. I actually looked at my schedule book and realized that I disconnected the hot tub in early November. I finished the project right before the end of the year.

The adjustor mentioned that they would be talking with the GC's insurance company to determine fault. I told her, "Whatever, that's why I'm paying you to figure this out."

 

[iwire]

Note that according to the OP the damage may well have taken place before power was again available.

Yes, it sure could have but by the EC leaving it off he can't say it did not happen after.

Spending most of my time in supermarkets means I am almost always up against a clock to restore power to circuits I work.

2 hours no problem.

3 hours and some food is starting to go.

4 hours some food will be tossed.

6 hours without bringing in any dry ice or relocating the food and the costs are going to start adding up fast.

We once split the cost of couple of grand of turkey's with a refrigeration contractor. We said it was their fault, they thought it was ours. It was best to just split it and keep the customer happy.

 

[GoldDigger]

Next time just move the turkeys to the hot tub.

 

[iwire]

Next time just move the turkeys to the hot tub.

:thumbsup:

One night I got a frantic call from a store manager, he said 'I have an electrical fire under the lobster tank. What should I do?'


I told him 'Melt some butter I will be right there!'


He did not find it as funny as I did. :happyno:

 

[jaylectricity]

That's funny, Bob. Some people just can't appreciate humor.

 

[ActionDave]

I got a good chuckle out of it too.

 

[jumper]

I got a good chuckle out of it too.

Ditto.