RV surge protectors doing bad things here - why?

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Several makes and models of surge protectors are causing power interruptions in RVs in my area. Like thousands of others working here in the Texas oilfields I live in my RV. Many of my associates report the same problem with their RV surge protectors. When I emailed this problem to the company that made my RV surge protector I got a quick answer back from the president of the company who politely doubted what I was reporting. He said it was not possible for a surge protector to cause power interruptions like what I described.

When voltage spikes occur and the surge protectors "throw" the surge to ground they also are causing the power to drop or cut out completely for a half-second or so. Not good for things like AC compressors. The power interruptions are deep enough and long enough to stop AC units and set off my computer UPS alarms. The power comes back up to normal, another spike hits, and it all happens over again.

One day the interruptions were so frequent it was not wise to leave anything running. At this time I did not suspect the surge protector. After all, it was for these power events I have it. It was in the middle of a dust storm with high winds. I thought that there must be a loose connection on the power lines so I headed out with binoculars, determined to locate the problem if possible and call it in. In the past I have seen loose power lines slap together in the wind. The RV park I live in is a year old, including all the wiring, so I headed for the line in to follow it down the street. The park manager saw me and came out to ask what I was looking for. I told him my power kept going on and off, I said nothing about the surge protector.

His next works were, "Do you have a surge protector connected to your rig?" I said I did. He then said, "Well that's the problem. I can't tell you the number of people in the last year who have had to disconnect theirs. It makes no difference what make or model, none of them work. They'll turn your power on and off all day long and ruin all kinds of electrical appliances. If I were you I'd disconnect it."

I went back to my RV and disconnected it. The wind continued to blow hard, no more power interruptions. Two hours later, wind still blowing, I reconnected it (after turning off my AC and all computers), and within minutes my power was again interrupted many times. As soon as I disconnected the protector, no more power interruptions. Whatever was going on with the power lines my surge protector made it worse, not better.

Conversations with others in the park, and other parks in the same area, disclosed this is indeed a common problem in the area. Nobody knows why. I have six computers in my RV. In the past, in other areas, I have lost equipment due to voltage problems. In addition to the main line protector I also have protectors on each computer. I use a Kilowatt meter to monitor line voltage at all times.

No doubt the wind was causing problems. But this is what a surge protector is supposed to help with. On days when the wind is not blowing similar problems still occur. When living in other areas I have not had this problem.

I'm sure it would help to have a few details. All I can say is that the RV hookups are 30 and 50 amp. While my surge protector was designed for outside use, I keep it inside connected between the electrical post and the RV entrance box.

Could someone please send me to a web site that explains what causes this? Or does anyone know what causes it? I am not looking for "how to" information. It's the theory I would like to understand on what might cause this to happen. So would my friends! Many thanks in advance.
 
To all members, as the OP says, he is not asking "how to" questions, he is wanting to discuss the theory of what might be causing this to happen so lets try to keep it to that.

Thanks

Roger
 
.... I use a Kilowatt meter to monitor line voltage at all times.

...

Welcome to the forums.

I'm not sure what kind of kw meter you have or what kind of data quality you are getting from it, but what's it telling you?

The fastest thing I can think of for a solution is to get a UPS sufficient to run the whole RV for at least the maximum expected down time (whether that be a few seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc.). It's going to cost you money, but hey, you're in the oil fields!

Have you called the electric utility and explained this to them?
 
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I keep it inside connected between the electrical post and the RV entrance box.

Is the protector connected in series or in parallel?
It sounds like you have the load pulling through the protector (series). I would think it should be connected in parallel.
 
Typical surge protectors just do not work the way you are describing this phenomenon. I could see why the surge suppressor vendor tells you it is not the surge suppressor.

Maybe RV surge suppressors work differently than typical ones. Do you have a part number that we could look at and see what it might be doing.
 
According to the descriptions on this site that's how they all work. Each one mentions that it shuts off power when neutral is lost, as well as for over and under voltage conditions.

Depending on your POV this is either a feature or a major design flaw.

I don't know why you would want a complete shutdown for a momentary voltage sag.

I suspect this kind of product is an attempt to protect people from the poor electrical systems that seem to be endemic to RV parks.

If you do not like the way the product works you should replace it with one more to your liking.
 
Depending on your POV this is either a feature or a major design flaw.

I don't know why you would want a complete shutdown for a momentary voltage sag.

I suspect this kind of product is an attempt to protect people from the poor electrical systems that seem to be endemic to RV parks.

If you do not like the way the product works you should replace it with one more to your liking.

Agreed, and I suspect the best option would be to leave the surge protector in place and invest in good, high capacity UPS's for the computers.
 
OK, so possible theory WHY discussion, not HOW TO fix it comments....

When a MOV (surge protector) 'works,' it puts a short circuit on the two wires it is across - as long as the voltage (spike) on the line is above its voltage rating. As long as the energy (joules) in the spike is not more than the MOV's power rating, it limits the voltage on those two wires to its voltage rating and does not blow up.

Typical MOV ratings are about 200v for 120vac rms lines since they have peak of 160v on their sine wave. So the spikes are obviously higher than 200v or so, and load (short) those higher voltages to 200v peak.

Now for the theory ideas....

Your individual 'surge protector' may be a power strip with a circuit breaker (CB)? If the short of the spike pulls too much current then the CB might open. Seems to me all the surge strips I have seen have CBs THAT WOULD STAY TRIPPED NOT RESET, so THAT is not the issue here.

You mention some 'outside but inside' surge protector: it may then not be the standard surge strip I am familiar with. So, as others have suggested, tell us details of your surge thing so we can see its specs.

Meanwhile, theory.... the MOV CLAMPS the voltage to about 200v peak - NOT MAKE IT GO TO ZERO for 1/2 second. This is why your surge mfgr rightly replied your scenario is not his problem.

Theory: you guys all have SOME CIRCUIT INTERRUPT DEVICE CUTTING YOUR VOLTAGE WHEN YOUR SURGE PROTECTORS PULL HIGH CURRENT during those spikes.

Your job Mr. Phelps, should you accept it, is to find that interrupter device.
 
MOV-based surge protectors are parallel-to-the-POCO-service devices that hang the surge protection devices (MOV's) each hot to neutral, and neutral to ground. MOV's, or Metal Oxide Varistors are semiconductors that are behave as insulators at the voltages normally across them. When a surge hits, the MOV's momentarily break down and begin to conduct, shunting the spike to ground. Once the voltage falls, they return to a nonconducting state.

I can, in theory, see an MOV conducting momentarily pulling a phase towards ground as it's shunting a spike to ground. That's what they do to protect downstream equipment. That's also why whole-house units are usually potted in sand, as a LARGE surge can cause the MOV to catastrophically conduct as a short circuit and blow up in the process. That's why they're placed on a circuit breaker; you don't want them causing a fire while trying to do their job.

I'm surprised that your surge protector (I assume whole-house/RV) isn't triggering the circuit breaker if it's really pulling the voltage down long enough for AC compressors and UPS's to trip. I believe you're on to something; it sounds like the manufacturer is doing a CYA. Is your surge protector on its own circuit breaker, or is it connected across the main lugs of the breaker panel? :blink:


-SceneryDriver
 
My next step would be to look at the actual model number of the RV protector and see whether or not it has undervoltage sensing and lockout. If it does, none of the speculation about MOVs is really necessary, as any power line disturbance is just as likely to reduce the voltage (at least in rebound) as it is to increase it.
 
Since movs cannot pull the voltage down below their voltage rating as some have suggested, that is not what ie happening. And ur .5 sec off before return of power is another clue showing it is not a mov.

Also keep in mind there may be movs line to ground and line to line. So if spike is l-l it does not tak e it to ground as suggested but simply causes hi current across the line. There is no cya going on with ur mov supplier.

Op really needs to give detail part no of this magical device for more help. I suspect when we get info we will be able to point to the reason for drop of voltage after spike event and subsequent delay coming back on. I did not want to prematurely speculate but all the description matches how an inlinwe Ntc inrush limiter works....
 
Did anyone other than Bob and I actually read the descriptions in the link I posted or did I miss something? Every single RV surge protector on that website is designed to shut down power on surges and dips to protect AC equipment and electronics. What difference does it make how they do that as long as the device is operating as designed? Heck, for all I know they're buying used Wiggies and repurposing the solenoids to activate a power-on switch when the 120V neon should come on ;)
 
Did anyone other than Bob and I actually read the descriptions in the link I posted or did I miss something? Every single RV surge protector on that website is designed to shut down power on surges and dips to protect AC equipment and electronics. What difference does it make how they do that as long as the device is operating as designed? Heck, for all I know they're buying used Wiggies and repurposing the solenoids to activate a power-on switch when the 120V neon should come on ;)


If it's not the RV park causing a brown out or something
Then someone needs to place a logger on the mains so they can prove to the POCO the issue.
 
Did anyone other than Bob and I actually read the descriptions in the link I posted or did I miss something?

HUH? WHAT LINK???

Wait, I went back over all your posts and found this:

According to the descriptions on this site that's how they all work. Each one mentions that it shuts off power when neutral is lost, as well as for over and under voltage conditions

Of course we missed an obscure link to some other place - you said THIS SITE - this site is mikeholt.com. I had no intention of beginning a long search of THIS SITE to see what you referred to since you appeared to not give a specific link.....

And the slight color difference on small screens is not real noticeable. Maybe you should put a link so we see it?

Now for what you found: although the units you found (I still have not bothered to go look as it is not the actual part number from the OP) you say do shut off for a bit, that is not definitive for what the OP asked. Unless and until OP tells us HIS part number, we can only continue to GUESS why what he sees is happening.

What difference does it make how they do that as long as the device is operating as designed?


THAT was the OP question: WHY.

I am now assuming he really didn't want to know as he has disappeared after his initial post.
 
HUH? WHAT LINK???

Wait, I went back over all your posts and found this:

According to the descriptions on this site that's how they all work. Each one mentions that it shuts off power when neutral is lost, as well as for over and under voltage conditions

Of course we missed an obscure link to some other place - you said THIS SITE - this site is mikeholt.com. I had no intention of beginning a long search of THIS SITE to see what you referred to since you appeared to not give a specific link.....

And the slight color difference on small screens is not real noticeable. Maybe you should put a link so we see it?

Now for what you found: although the units you found (I still have not bothered to go look as it is not the actual part number from the OP) you say do shut off for a bit, that is not definitive for what the OP asked. Unless and until OP tells us HIS part number, we can only continue to GUESS why what he sees is happening.

What difference does it make how they do that as long as the device is operating as designed?


THAT was the OP question: WHY.

I am now assuming he really didn't want to know as he has disappeared after his initial post.

Sorry for causing confusion. I will post full links from now on.

The fact remains that this behavior in RV surge protectors appears to be an industry standard to deal with crappy wiring and less than ideal voltage conditions at campgrounds and that pretty much answers the "why" in the OPs question. There is a video on that website where they talk about the "why" in more detail.
 
The fact remains that this behavior in RV surge protectors appears to be an industry standard

Peter, i totally agree with your assessment. This is a typical example of an industry design some yoyo ignorant person came up with and others in the 'industry' adopted it as the solution.

Whoever came up with such a poor design should be shot.

No 1/2 intelligent electrical engineer would design a device to cut power for 1 sec at a time due to a simple voltage spike! The damage being done to the downstream motors, compressors, electronics FAR outweigh the 'improvement' of simply clipping the silly spikes!
 
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