RV surge protectors doing bad things here - why?

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I think you are missing (part of) the point.
The design goal was never to cut power for however many seconds in response to a spike. It was to cut power in the event of a prolonged over or undervoltage condition independent of any surge protection function.
My guess is that the "spike" the OP is referring to is or is accompanied by a transient voltage change, and that, not the spike, is what Is tripping the protection. A line monitor with sufficient time resolution would confirm or refute that.
Now there is room for argument about the time sensitivity of the voltage protection circuit, and that may in fact vary among different brands and models
If the park power is subject to voltage transients, not just spikes, there may be a way to improve that situation. But only after determining just what the event looks like.
 
I agree with most of what you say, but NOT any design that allows power to turn off for a second or so then then right back on. I think we can all agree that is misapplication of engineering principals as it causes damage to downstream motors & other devices. There is no good design reason to do this. If the spike circuit cannot handle clipping the spike, or the voltage goes too hi or too lo for a reasonable period of time, then yes, pull the plug - but have a time out that does not allow reapplying power for a period of time that will not harm downstream devices. I did not design this and have/will not spend the time to research what that period of time is, but the designer of these devices darn well should! THAT 1 second off then back on is the major design fault that I believe should get the designer shot.
 
mike_kilroy said:
Peter, i totally agree with your assessment. This is a typical example of an industry design some yoyo ignorant person came up with and others in the 'industry' adopted it as the solution.

Whoever came up with such a poor design should be shot.

No 1/2 intelligent electrical engineer would design a device to cut power for 1 sec at a time due to a simple voltage spike! The damage being done to the downstream motors, compressors, electronics FAR outweigh the 'improvement' of simply clipping the silly spikes!
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The brand on the website I linked to the other day claims that their unit shuts power off for 128 seconds. That obviously doesn't mean that all manufacturers have that kind of hysteresis built in, or that there isn't something else going on with power incidents that could be causing the contactor in the surge unit to momentarily unlatch then latch again. At 128 seconds it does seem like iron-clad protection, albeit a little bit of a hassle to deal with as a user. I'm a little surprised that the manufacturer didn't take the opportunity to do some field research into the case - especially if they know that multiple users are experiencing the same behavior.
 
PetrosA said:
The brand on the website I linked to the other day claims that their unit shuts power off for 128 seconds.
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Reminder OP said: "When voltage spikes occur and the surge protectors "throw" the surge to ground they also are causing the power to drop or cut out completely for a half-second or so."

This is why I kept being annal about OP telling us HIS part number - it obviously is not the one you found on line....

So I still stand on the designer of HIS unit should be shot.
 
I had dinner tonight with a friend of many years. He's service manager for one of the largest RV dealers in the country and he's been at it for 40+ years. I sat there with him for over an hour before this thread came to mind. I asked him what's up with this and here's what he said:

RV suppressors are designed to break the power supply when there is under or over voltage. He didn't know the exact numbers but said it's somewhere around 105 volts and 135 volts. Reason being is that as everything in an RV has come to have a motherboard in it, they were replacing motherboards like mad until the industry came up with this solution. It saves on warranty claims. It will break the supply outside of the prescribed allowable range and remake the supply when the supply comes back into range. As to duration of the break, that's a function of when the supply comes back into range. If OP is experiencing 0.5s time duration of break, then that's the duration of supply voltage being out of range. I told him about "these guys out at the oil wells in Texas" and how many times per day it's happening and he said it never was anticipated that something like that would happen. Those guys need to speak with whoever supplies their power. What they experience more on service calls is someone saying they're connected to a supply somewhere and they can't get power inside the RV. They tell them to measure voltage on the line side of the suppressor and tell them what it is. Almost always it's a continuous supply out of range. And if you are connected to hard wired POCO supply and run your genset at the same time, the genset has priority in the ATS. One thing OP could do short term is fire up his genset if it gets windy. Long term OP needs a UPS for his RV if the POCO is not going to fix the problem.
 
mike_kilroy said:
Reminder OP said: "When voltage spikes occur and the surge protectors "throw" the surge to ground they also are causing the power to drop or cut out completely for a half-second or so."

This is why I kept being annal about OP telling us HIS part number - it obviously is not the one you found on line....

So I still stand on the designer of HIS unit should be shot.
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The designer should be shot if they refuse to look into and fix the issue. That kind of switching on and off is going to burn something up at some point.
 
If what we think is happening is indeed what is going on, IMO this is a serious design flaw in the "surge suppressor". If the company refuses to stand behind the product, just take it back to where is was bought and demand one's money back and buy one that works in a more rational way.

Telling someone that buys a product like this that the only solution to a design defect like this involves the POCO is just plain wrong. One of the basic purposes of the device is to protect from POCO line disturbances and this is a common one that it just is not protecting against.
 
petersonra said:
If what we think is happening is indeed what is going on, IMO this is a serious design flaw in the "surge suppressor". If the company refuses to stand behind the product, just take it back to where is was bought and demand one's money back and buy one that works in a more rational way.

Telling someone that buys a product like this that the only solution to a design defect like this involves the POCO is just plain wrong. One of the basic purposes of the device is to protect from POCO line disturbances and this is a common one that it just is not protecting against.
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I think the product is improperly named. A surge suppressor to us is something that clamps over voltage. The product in question is designed to break a supply which is out of range.

Think about the manufacturer of the RV. That's typically a $300k - $900k luxury item packed full of electronics. As some on here have said, RV parks are notorious for less then optimal power distribution. If you are warranting that RV and some guy pulls into a campground and plugs it into a supply which is getting 90 volts on one leg, do you want to be warranting that? Or do you want to have a system that shunts that supply so as to not burn everything up?

It seems that the RV industry prescribed requirements to manufacturers who came up with what they're using. They just put a bad name on it. It's a power quality analyzer.
 
mgookin said:
I think the product is improperly named. A surge suppressor to us is something that clamps over voltage. The product in question is designed to break a supply which is out of range.

Think about the manufacturer of the RV. That's typically a $300k - $900k luxury item packed full of electronics. As some on here have said, RV parks are notorious for less then optimal power distribution. If you are warranting that RV and some guy pulls into a campground and plugs it into a supply which is getting 90 volts on one leg, do you want to be warranting that? Or do you want to have a system that shunts that supply so as to not burn everything up?

It seems that the RV industry prescribed requirements to manufacturers who came up with what they're using. They just put a bad name on it. It's a power quality analyzer.
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mkookin, as an owner of a restored 1973 GMS Saharaland motorhome (bought new), I have to completely disagree. I have 2 large AC units on it. If I had this destructive 1 sec power off then back on device on it and did not know what was going on, I am sure I would have 2 bad AC units in short order.

The mfgrs of ALL these devices that do *NOT* have a couple minute *DELAY* between completely shutting off power and then restoring it, have simply a BAD design that will BREAK more things than it helps. Think about that RV park owner's reply to the OP: he said those things are worse than good - HE KNOWS.

I have one company location that had some bad tree limbs that would hit the 7200v overhead lines during EVERY thunderstorm. Unfortunately the poco had overload disconnector things on the pole between that limb and our house. Result? EVERY thunderstorm for a YEAR took out at least one computer on the damn glitches until I got less dumb and bought UPS's for each of them. Had I had some crappy thing like this RV 'protector' in line, I would also have been taking out my AC units, refrigerator compressors, air compressors, etc. Fixing a problem with a poorly thought out POS is NOT a simple mislabeled gadget in my book, regardless (not irregardless, thank you ismoke) of their advertising.
 
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I think everyone shares the distaste for how it's functioning. It is the duty of poco and the rv park to provide steady power, not the rv manufacturer.

A cure is a UPS, as it cured your situation. If I had a computer system out at oil rigs in Texas, I'd already have a local ups on that system. And if I were somewhere where the power is unsteady, I'd ups the whole motorhome. That oil well is worth a whole lot more than the ups system.

And I'm just the messenger. I didn't invent it and I don't make it! :happyno:
 
More details and answers to questions

More details and answers to questions

First, thanks to all for your answers. I've been busy and have not had time to respond until now.

Wow! I love what all of you have presented. Given us much to look into. It's going to turn into a fun quest to solve this one. Yes, we get bored.

A few details. My RV does not have a generator. Most of my friends units do not have generators.

I do not get any shocks getting into my RV. As far as grounding goes, there is a ground wire going from the entrance breaker box to the RV chassis. However, as far as I can tell, the primary ground is through the park service via the park box. The park I am in is less than a year old. Everything is brand new. It is by far the best park in 50 miles - we looked at them all. All the electrical conduits and boxes are all shinny new. Of course, this does not mean it was done right. There are several different distribution boxes. It appears that the main drops from the cans on the poles go to these boxes via underground. On each distribution boxes there are no more than 5 conduits coming back out. While I am not sure it appears that each site is getting good power distribution.

I do understand the basics of electrical power supply, at least enough to know how to use a volt/amp/ohm meter. The Kilowatt meter I referenced, that is the brand name for it. You plug it into an AC outlet. You can then monitor amp draw, supply voltages, etc. In hopes of seeing what the voltage dropped or surged up to at the moments my surge protector was cutting power, I kept it right in front of me. When the surge protector did it's thing I did not see any voltage drops or surges. All I was watching was the voltage levels. I suspect that my little meter, being a cheap one, could not react fast enough to display what had happened.

Regarding the make and model of my surge protector, it is a Progressive Industries SSP-30. However, I hasten to point out that several other makes and models cause the same problem. I have no idea if it is wired in parallel or series. You plug it into the AC outlet on the RV park utility post, then plug the RV main powder line into that. My protector was not exposed to the elements.

My RV does have several motherboards as appliances and other devices run on 12vdc, 120vac, or propane. The boards detect what power source is connected. If the ac goes off, then the 12vdc turns on, or the propane turns on depending which appliance or device is involved.

Regarding static charges building up on the RV during dust storms, this is very interesting. Yes, my surge protector acted up only during high winds, which of course kick up lots of dust and sand. However, when I walked outside in these conditions I could see for 1/2 mile, and I could breath just fine so I would say it was not a real heavy storm.

Regarding the response from the manufacturer of my unit, I offered to them that since they did not belive me, I would be glad to send them cell phone videos of the events, including the audio. I also offered to connect any type of monitoring device of their choosing to help nail down the problems. Their response was to send me a different model, free of charge - unless it worked. If it worked then I would have to pay for it. No mention of what to do with the old one. To me this is like the auto mechanic who just replaces parts until the engine runs right. I was not impressed. I want to know what the heck is going on.

I have no idea if the half-second power cuts are the result of the design, or something else. Since the manufacturer claims it should NOT do this, I suspect that something is coming in on the POCO lines that it is not designed to handle. No, I have not contacted the POCO. They are so busy here I doubt they would have much time for me. But I will try.

After watching a couple of Mike Holt's videos on grounding on YouTube I can see there are many possibilities. I learned a great deal for sure! The only weird thing here that I can think of that many other areas do not have is there are hundreds of wind turbines here. Within two miles of my RV are about 800 of them. When the wind really kicks up I have fun watching what the control centers do with the prop pitch. However, I find it hard to believe they would have anything to do with this.

Mgookin's conversation with the RV guy was very enlightening. Golddigger said "If the park power is subject to voltage transients, not just spikes, there may be a way to improve that situation. But only after determining just what the event looks like." That is why I asked the manufacturer if we could measure or monitor what was going on. According to all that I could see with my little Kilowatt meter and my volt meter was that I have on average 118 to 123 vac at the park post. In the RV voltage matches what I have on the park post. The lowest I have seen is 113vac, the highest has been 127vac.

The power supplies at almost all of the drilling rigs is via big generators. Very few rigs us POCO power. Most rigs are in place for a month, then are moved. It is not cost-effective to install and use POCO. The new rigs are 1200 and 1500 vac powered.

By the way folks, if you want work, this area needs electricians BAD! The area I am in is now known to be the second largest reserve in the world, The Cline. These are KNOWN reserves. Further, the crude is a very good quality. There are many billions of dollars pouring into this area from all over the world.

Also, this area of Texas has six of the world's ten largest wind farms. There are tens of thousands of the damn things twirling around everywhere. Many more are planned. There are many new substations and transmission lines going in as well.

Now here comes the solar panel farms too. A new big solar plant going in near Midland. Have you heard of the new way to store renewable energy power called Sun Gas? It works very well and solves the age-old problem of how to store power generated via turbines and solar. So if you want to work in 110 degree heat, eat dust all day, fight the constant wind, and work too many hours every day, come on down and fill up your bank accounts!

Thanks again to all of you. Learning a great deal, thanks for that.
 
Ten Burgers said:
To solve the problem I am having the manufacturer suggested using this model instead. Thought all might find it interesting. I will also try to contact the local POCO folks and see what they say. Here is the link:

http://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems_pt30c.htm

Again, thanks to all.
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Most POCO's will put a datalogger on their system but it's going to be at the point of delivery to the park. If that checks out, I suggest asking the park to hire a local EC to put one on their services.

And you're very welcome. We all benefit from this forum. :thumbsup:
 
I want to ad one comment ... on this 30A 120V application. The unit says that "The integrated circuit tester checks for: Reverse Polarity, Open Neutral and Open Ground prior to use."

I wonder ... what happens if either Open Neutral or Open Ground occur IN USE. This unit, unlike the EMS-PT30C they'v suggested does not cut off on low/high voltage ... I wonder if another line is being detected as opening briefly, turning off, reestablishing itself, then coming back on ... ?
 
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