Liability insurance, frozen pipes in a hot tub

Learn the NEC with Mike Holt now!

Liability insurance, frozen pipes in a hot tub

  • I'm at fault.

    Votes: 3 14.3%

  • Homeowner is at fault.

    Votes: 7 33.3%

  • GC is at fault

    Votes: 12 57.1%
  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
jaylectricity said:
Responsibility is shifting towards the GC, according my adjustor. Figured I'd give you the update.
Click to expand...
As it should be when it comes to dealing with the customer complaint. Still doesn't mean the GC can't try to blame you for something though, on his own.
 
kwired said:
As it should be when it comes to dealing with the customer complaint. Still doesn't mean the GC can't try to blame you for something though, on his own.
Click to expand...

Small jobs like this are tough when it comes to figuring out who was supposed to be doing what when. Tough in the sense that most people don't pay attention to the details. My rule of thumb is that if it isn't written down, it didn't happen. Don't say you called me last month to talk about whatever, when you get off the phone send an e-mail: "To confirm our telephone conversation today...". This puts me on notice and protects you. I do the very same thing, if for no other reason than there's a lot of "hand waving over the phone" as my dad used to say, trying to figure out what's going on, and a summary e-mail serves to capture the essence of the discussion and firm up the understanding. It also allows an opportunity to say "hey, that's not what I meant...".

Ideally, after the disconnect is relocated, an e-mail goes to the GC saying "Please be advised that the disconnect has been relocated per your instruction. Note that the CIRCUIT BREAKER IS OFF. Due to the wheather, there is a potential freeze hazard. Please advise as to when I should return to reenergize the circuit." If nothing comes back, and unhappiness ensues, you're in a much better position.
 
kwired said:
As it should be when it comes to dealing with the customer complaint. Still doesn't mean the GC can't try to blame you for something though, on his own.
Click to expand...

I'm just going to leave it up to the insurance companies. That's why I pay mine. If anybody sues me, they're suing my insurance company.
 
jaylectricity said:
I'm just going to leave it up to the insurance companies. That's why I pay mine. If anybody sues me, they're suing my insurance company.
Click to expand...
Well you don't want to be in the habit of making claims on your insurance either, that usually will make you become a higher risk and raise your premium. Plus you may have deductibles you still are responsible for paying, though that may not be so common on liability insurance.
 
it is somewhat of a fallacy that insurance companies will raise your rates for claims.

while if you have claims that are legitimately deemed your fault it can have an upward effect on your rates (as it should), these kind of claims the OP is talking about are why you buy insurance and the insurance companies are unlikely to even notice it, unless you end up with a bunch of similar claims, which can get a little suspicious.

it is probably best to just deal with minor claims that are your fault as warranty issues, which is a fair way to handle it all around.
 
petersonra said:
it is somewhat of a fallacy that insurance companies will raise your rates for claims.

while if you have claims that are legitimately deemed your fault it can have an upward effect on your rates (as it should), these kind of claims the OP is talking about are why you buy insurance and the insurance companies are unlikely to even notice it, unless you end up with a bunch of similar claims, which can get a little suspicious.

it is probably best to just deal with minor claims that are your fault as warranty issues, which is a fair way to handle it all around.
Click to expand...
Can't speak for general liability policy procedures as I don't have a track record for claims with such a policy, but I do know some auto policies will have "accident free" discounts that go away if you have a claim, I believe you need to be accident free for 24 months before you can get the discount back.
 
jaylectricity said:
I'm just going to leave it up to the insurance companies. That's why I pay mine. If anybody sues me, they're suing my insurance company.
Click to expand...

Has anybody got for a quote for the repairs costs? What are we talking here? A couple of hundred? Get it fixed, pay the bill and move on. The time you spend pointing fingers at each other is time you could be making money on another job.
 
stevenje said:
Has anybody got for a quote for the repairs costs? What are we talking here? A couple of hundred? Get it fixed, pay the bill and move on. The time you spend pointing fingers at each other is time you could be making money on another job.
Click to expand...

From the repairman:

You?re looking at $1800 to $2000 initially with more repairs expected. With frozen spas, you generally repair the leaks you can see, then find more as you?re able to pressurize and heat the system. It isn?t possible to give a good estimate one what there could be after the initial repairs, but I?ve seen jobs get as high as $4000. I hope this was helpful.
Click to expand...
 
$1800 to $2000 & maybe as high as $4000, What does a new tub like this cost ? Looks like to me the General Contractor would be on the hook for this. The GC is responsible for all other aspects of the job, He needs to step up & take responsibility.
 
John120/240 said:
$1800 to $2000 & maybe as high as $4000, What does a new tub like this cost ? Looks like to me the General Contractor would be on the hook for this. The GC is responsible for all other aspects of the job, He needs to step up & take responsibility.
Click to expand...

I probably mentioned it earlier, but the customer is maybe also looking for market value of her used tub and the cost to remove it.
 
jaylectricity said:
I probably mentioned it earlier, but the customer is maybe also looking for market value of her used tub and the cost to remove it.
Click to expand...
Of course - that is how we do things these days, get what you can via litigation instead of being reasonable and working with others for a mutual solution decision when there is a problem. People used to be nice to one another but that doesn't happen much anymore.

I doubt anyone intentionally made this situation come up, but the owner wants it to be treated as something willful:(
 
A basic principle of tort law is that the injured party is to be "made whole", not enriched.
The homeowner gets the cost of repair or the cost of a new tub if that is less expensive. Or maybe just the value of the used tub. Not two or more of those at the same time!
 
GoldDigger said:
A basic principle of tort law is that the injured party is to be "made whole", not enriched.
The homeowner gets the cost of repair or the cost of a new tub if that is less expensive. Or maybe just the value of the used tub. Not two or more of those at the same time!
Click to expand...

That also is complicated these days as many things are repairable, but replacement cost is usually so close to repair cost that repairs are not deemed worthwhile. I guess it is still fair in the end but kind of doesn't seem that way from outside looking in. Friends, neighbors, etc. just get the story of how the contractor(s) ruined the hot tub and they ended up getting a new one out of the deal, making it appear they kind of got away with something.
 
I would have to say that the GC is at fault 100% and you are 0% responsible. Since you do not advertise that you work on spas it is not your responsibility or scope of work to run the spa. That should be left to the spa technician provided by either the GC or the Homeowner. They should have been paying better attention to a glaring detail about their job.
 
Ravenvalor said:
I would have to say that the GC is at fault 100% and you are 0% responsible. Since you do not advertise that you work on spas it is not your responsibility or scope of work to run the spa.
Click to expand...


But he did work on it so he has (IMO) some responsibility for doing so.

If I was a customer and a contractor said something to me like your post above they would be removed from the job before they could even finish speaking.
 
A couple years ago, we had to put in a hot tub disco for a hot tub that the customer got a good deal on.

The EC owned a tub and was familiar with start up, so he decided to fill it and make sure all the controls, etc., were working.

We got it filled and while testing we heard something under the deck. So the tub got turned off. We looked under the deck and it looked like a water fall. Water was pouring on the pump, heater, electrical stuff and generally spraying everywhere.

Obviously, fixing the leak was not our problem, but this illustrates the condition that some hot tubs are in when purchased used.

Around here, most of the time people just give them away as moving them and hooking them back up is such a PITA.

I don't think it's the electrician's job to assure the functionality of homeowner equipment just because a disconnect or a receptacle was relocated. It's even more bizarre to think it's the electrician's job to winterize equipment just because he moved a disconnect.
 
iwire said:
But he did work on it so he has (IMO) some responsibility for doing so.
Click to expand...

All he did was re-connect it. You may consider that 'working on it', but I don't. Even so, why should his responsibility go beyond the work he did? If the wires were connected incorrectly I would see that as the OP's responsibility. But to assure that winterizing be done, to me, is beyond the electrician's scope of work.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top