Entire panel of breakers tripping off.

[big john]

I think there is a serious problem with the relative motion of conductors and fluxes which is interfering with the modial interaction of magneto-reluctance and capacitive diractance.

Based on what OP posted, I would wager a fair bit of money that if he opens one of those breakers he'll find that the two sperving bearings are no longer aligned with the panametric fan.

 

[iwire]

Based on what OP posted, I would wager a fair bit of money that if he opens one of those breakers he'll find that the two sperving bearings are no longer aligned with the panametric fan.

If I have seen it once I have seen it a thousand times. The main winding is a normal lotus-o-delta type placed in panendermic semi-boloid slots of the stator, every seventh conductor being connected by a non-reversible tremie pipe to the differential girdle spring on the "up" end of the grammeters.

 

[Curious nerd]

Thinking outside the box

Thinking outside the box

A more conclusive experiment than a padlock would be dusting the breaker handles with one of those invisible chemicals that's used to trap people touching things they shouldn't. After the next time the breakers go off, shine a UV light on the kids's hands.

 

[domnic]

breakers off

breakers off

This post is bull #@^*%$#!

 

[K8MHZ]

I am going to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and wait to see what he finds out.

As much as I would like to join in on the fun, my curiosity has taken the upper hand over my sincere desire to make light of the OP's dilemma.

This may be a first for me.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Yes this is the only unit in this building that is having the issue, but we did 1 other building next door and we have not be contacted. It has happened with me standing in front of the panel. The kids are always supervised and seem to be good kids. We have used them and there mother to try to recreate the tripping but cant seem to do it. We dont have a power monitor but maybe we can find a company that can do it for us. I dont believe there are any circuits with shared neutrals, but we will have to check. I just dont understand how every breaker could trip at once, and especially ones with no wire connected.

well, it's not load then. so what can trip a thermal breaker without current flow thru it,
while you are standing there looking at it?

short of going over the hedge to paranormal activity, i'm stumped.
i've seen some pretty weird stuff on the "over the hedge" side of
what's possible, but there's no way of sorting any of that out in a
way that helps here.

if i saw every breaker trip in a panel, including ones that weren't
hooked to a wire, i'd go buy a whole panel full of new breakers,
no gfci's or afci's, and switch them out. then, i'd put a lock on the
panel door, and see what happens. if they all tripped again, including
unloaded ones, i'd call an exorcist.

 

[mbrooke]

FWIW Every now and then a random thread like this pops up on the internet of some guy claiming breakers are tripping in such a manner. It never gets solved or followed up on.




To the OP, bring a video camera and try recording it. I will believe it when I see it. The breaker that tripped, was it an AFCI or regular breaker?


I am still betting that someone is tripping them. You mention its when the kids are around. Good chance one of them is doing it. Unless some powerful energy weapons are at work I cant come close to explaining why rows of breakers would just trip to the off position as though being physically touched.

 

[mbrooke]

Yes we saw it but only once. It happened right after we meggered the SER feeder cable and it checked out fine, then landed the wires and turned everything back on. Shortly after that most every breaker shut off.

Did you turn your back? Did you actually witness the breakers tripping in real time in front of you? Which one started it? They tripped to the center or off? How many tripped in all? Any noise of any kind before, during, or after?

 

[big john]

...Did you actually witness the breakers tripping in real time in front of you...?

That's the kicker for me. That and the part about ones tripping with nothing connected.

Those details drastically change the possible causes. "They tripped while I was in the house" isn't the same thing as "They tripped while I was standing there watching the panel."

Same with "Most of the breakers in the panel tripped" versus "Every single breaker in the panel tripped." I can trip a panel full of AFCIs. I cannot trip a panel full of thermal-magnetics.

 

[mwm1752]

Here are some items the OP has reported as facts:

1. Four identical panels were installed in an apartment unit.
2. All of the breakers trip simultaneously (or nearly so) in one panel.
3. The OP has observed this happening.
4. After tripping the breakers are in the off position.
5. Tripping only occurs when children are present.
6. Some breakers trip that are not even connected to a load.

Have you taken breakers out of panels where there have been no problems & switched them out with the tripping breakers -- you could isolate the problem to whether the issue is on the line side or load side. If the tripping breaker continue to trip in panels which had no problems = bad breakers, If the tripping breakers hold and non problem breakers start tripping = line side problem -- If this is a hoax as suggested please no more post

 

[JoeTroubleShoot]

I had a call one night where the person had thought they lost all power. Checked everything outside to be good and when I went inside, every AFCI was tripped, not off. The regular breakers were on. I reset the AFCI's and all was good, at least until I left. I work for the POCO so I didn't get to find out the cause from the original electrician who was out there the next morning. I've never seen it happen before or since. This was a two week old panel. The lady said everything went out at once.

Doesn't really help solve your problem, but you may not be crazy.

 

[kwired]

I had a call one night where the person had thought they lost all power. Checked everything outside to be good and when I went inside, every AFCI was tripped, not off. The regular breakers were on. I reset the AFCI's and all was good, at least until I left. I work for the POCO so I didn't get to find out the cause from the original electrician who was out there the next morning. I've never seen it happen before or since. This was a two week old panel. The lady said everything went out at once.

Doesn't really help solve your problem, but you may not be crazy.

I would guess some kind of transient condition (likely from the supply end) caused them to trip.

The only time I witnessed an AFCI trip was one time when trimming out a new home - out in rural area. Rural areas seem to experience recloser operations more so then in cities, these AFCI's happened to trip during such an event, my guess a transient voltage from the switching didn't agree with the AFCI's. Funny thing is not all of them tripped - and appeared as though only the ones that actually had an active load on them at the time were the ones that did trip. This was long enough ago that all that required AFCI at the time was bedrooms IIRC, so there wasn't a panel mostly full of AFCI's.

 

[JoeTroubleShoot]

I would guess some kind of transient condition (likely from the supply end) caused them to trip.

The only time I witnessed an AFCI trip was one time when trimming out a new home - out in rural area. Rural areas seem to experience recloser operations more so then in cities, these AFCI's happened to trip during such an event, my guess a transient voltage from the switching didn't agree with the AFCI's. Funny thing is not all of them tripped - and appeared as though only the ones that actually had an active load on them at the time were the ones that did trip. This was long enough ago that all that required AFCI at the time was bedrooms IIRC, so there wasn't a panel mostly full of AFCI's.

I thought the same thing, but I know when there is switching being done and I work in a heavily populated area. It was a quiet night with no switching, no bad weather, and no other calls anywhere near there. There was at least ten breakers tripped. I wish I could have followed up with it, but most likely it was chalked up to an electrical phenomenon.

 

[kwired]

I thought the same thing, but I know when there is switching being done and I work in a heavily populated area. It was a quiet night with no switching, no bad weather, and no other calls anywhere near there. There was at least ten breakers tripped. I wish I could have followed up with it, but most likely it was chalked up to an electrical phenomenon.

Industrial load changes in nearby areas?

Do you know when a recloser has operated and successfully reset on your system, or only know when the fault has not cleared and you have to go out and clear it?

 

[JoeTroubleShoot]

Industrial load changes in nearby areas?

Do you know when a recloser has operated and successfully reset on your system, or only know when the fault has not cleared and you have to go out and clear it?

No significant load change that I know of. It was around 9PM.

I get called either way. Dispatchers want to know why a recloser or breaker operates whether it resets or not. We usually are involved in system switching or can get info an any remote switching being done whether it's routine or emergency. Most cap banks are on a schedule.. that's one thing I could have followed up on which I didn't, but the lack of any other calls made me think it had more to do with something in the house rather than the utility side.

 

[kwired]

No significant load change that I know of. It was around 9PM.

I get called either way. Dispatchers want to know why a recloser or breaker operates whether it resets or not. We usually are involved in system switching or can get info an any remote switching being done whether it's routine or emergency. Most cap banks are on a schedule.. that's one thing I could have followed up on which I didn't, but the lack of any other calls made me think it had more to do with something in the house rather than the utility side.

That was my main question - do you know a recloser had operated even if the fault cleared and things reset themselves, but from your response here I take it you generally do know that it cycled.

 

[Jraef]

Here are some items the OP has reported as facts:

1. Four identical panels were installed in an apartment unit.
2. All of the breakers trip simultaneously (or nearly so) in one panel.
3. The OP has observed this happening.
4. After tripping the breakers are in the off position.
5. Tripping only occurs when children are present.
6. Some breakers trip that are not even connected to a load.

Have you taken breakers out of panels where there have been no problems & switched them out with the tripping breakers -- you could isolate the problem to whether the issue is on the line side or load side. If the tripping breaker continue to trip in panels which had no problems = bad breakers, If the tripping breakers hold and non problem breakers start tripping = line side problem -- If this is a hoax as suggested please no more post

Good compilation. You left out only that he swears there was no sudden mechanical shock or vibration, after that possibility was raised.

Other than this, all we know about the breakers is that "they are Siemens" and that "Siemens has looked into it" (words to that effect). The OP has never said what series of breakers these are, whether they have accessories (ie shunt trips?, remote control solenoids?) installed, nothing further. As I said earlier, having worked for Siemens, I know for a FACT that they do not sell a breaker that "trips" to the off position.

So given all these strange issues and barring further reports and clarification from the OP, I'm willing to declare this thread a hoax, maybe perpetrated by a Siemens competitor Or someone with an axe to grind, trying to raise questions as to their having vague unknown and unprovable problems in the field. Mind you I have no love of the Lazy S Ranch, in fact I have every reason to harbor a grudge against them. But I have stepped in BS before and although it MIGHT be something else this time, it looks, feels and smells exactly as I remembered it.

 

[mbrooke]

I would guess some kind of transient condition (likely from the supply end) caused them to trip.

The only time I witnessed an AFCI trip was one time when trimming out a new home - out in rural area. Rural areas seem to experience recloser operations more so then in cities, these AFCI's happened to trip during such an event, my guess a transient voltage from the switching didn't agree with the AFCI's. Funny thing is not all of them tripped - and appeared as though only the ones that actually had an active load on them at the time were the ones that did trip. This was long enough ago that all that required AFCI at the time was bedrooms IIRC, so there wasn't a panel mostly full of AFCI's.

Could be from the arc signature itself. A downed wire or bushing flash over produces one heck of an arc signature.

 

[mbrooke]

No significant load change that I know of. It was around 9PM.

I get called either way. Dispatchers want to know why a recloser or breaker operates whether it resets or not. We usually are involved in system switching or can get info an any remote switching being done whether it's routine or emergency. Most cap banks are on a schedule.. that's one thing I could have followed up on which I didn't, but the lack of any other calls made me think it had more to do with something in the house rather than the utility side.

Could even be from the regional transmission system itself? No idea but Ive heard similar stories of AFCIs just tripping.

 

[GoldDigger]

Could be from the arc signature itself. A downed wire or bushing flash over produces one heck of an arc signature.

Which would not explain either the non-AFCI breakers switching off as well or the handles going to the off instead of tripped position.
Not to mention that the arc signature recognition is gated by a minimum current through the breaker for at least most AFCI breakers. (8A ?)