Finished basement space

[nizak]

If a basement has finished space ( walls are drywall, drop ceiling) but the floor is painted concrete, do the receptacles have to be GFCI protected? It's not the cost of the GFCI protection that I'm questioning, it's just wanting to know if it's a code requirement.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

In my opinion what you have is a finished space. The floor coverings are irrelevant. In fact, it is very hip in some areas to have painted cement floors as you describe and it does not change the fact that the space is finished.

Being that out is a finished space, no GFCI required but you can always go above the minimum standard of you wish.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

In my opinion what you have is a finished space. The floor coverings are irrelevant. In fact, it is very hip in some areas to have painted cement floors as you describe and it does not change the fact that the space is finished.

Being that out is a finished space, no GFCI required but you can always go above the minimum standard of you wish.

Damn, I agree again

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Now this just had to stop..people will start talking Dennis

 

[nizak]

I had an inspector 3 years ago require GFCI protection in a similar situation. He said that the concrete floor was the reason that GFCI protection was needed. He made the comparison to a residential garage that had drywall interior and concrete floor. It was easier to install a $12 device and feed through to the other receps than it was to argue about it.

 

[infinity]

I had an inspector 3 years ago require GFCI protection in a similar situation. He said that the concrete floor was the reason that GFCI protection was needed. He made the comparison to a residential garage that had drywall interior and concrete floor. It was easier to install a $12 device and feed through to the other receps than it was to argue about it.

I would have argued but that's just me. :roll:

As MTNEC stated the floor type is irrelevant as long as the space is finished.

 

[growler]

If a basement has finished space ( walls are drywall, drop ceiling) but the floor is painted concrete, do the receptacles have to be GFCI protected?

As MTNEC stated the floor type is irrelevant as long as the space is finished.

I agree that it's all about being a finished space. But what does it take to make an area a finished living space?

When you get a permit to finish a basement you are required to list the intended useage of each area. Game room, office, bedroom, mechanical room, shop. A game room, office or bedroom are required to meet critera for finished living spaces and a mechanical room or shop is not an will not be considered finished even with drywall and ceiling.

If an area is listed on the permit to be finished living space the electrical inspector should not tag the job for not having GFCI protection but the building inspector may tag it for not meeting all the critera for finished living space ( it's up to the GC or owner to deal with that).

 

[iwire]

I had an inspector 3 years ago require GFCI protection in a similar situation. He said that the concrete floor was the reason that GFCI protection was needed. He made the comparison to a residential garage that had drywall interior and concrete floor.

I think he is forgetting the fact a garage typically has a large door to the outside world that often leads to wet floors from wet / snow covered cars etc.

I don't see that as much in a basement.

It was easier to install a $12 device and feed through to the other receps than it was to argue about it.

I agree.

 

[petersonra]

I agree that it's all about being a finished space. But what does it take to make an area a finished living space?

When you get a permit to finish a basement you are required to list the intended useage of each area. Game room, office, bedroom, mechanical room, shop. A game room, office or bedroom are required to meet critera for finished living spaces and a mechanical room or shop is not an will not be considered finished even with drywall and ceiling.

If an area is listed on the permit to be finished living space the electrical inspector should not tag the job for not having GFCI protection but the building inspector may tag it for not meeting all the critera for finished living space ( it's up to the GC or owner to deal with that).

I don't see why there would be an arbitrary designation of a mechanical room or shop as unfinished space. The space is either finished or it isn't w/o respect to its intended use. I don't even see why drywall is necessary to be considered finished. Paint is a finish and if the concrete walls are painted they are finished IMO. A lot of motels have concrete ceilings that are just painted. Those are certainly finished spaces.

I do not recall any requirement that any particular style of finishing is required to consider a space to be finished.

I would agree that a space with unpainted concrete walls and/or unpainted concrete floors is unfinished.

IMO exposed unpainted joists are unfinished but exposed joist ceilings that are painted are finished (a pretty common thing these days too).

 

[gadfly56]

I would have argued but that's just me. :roll:

As MTNEC stated the floor type is irrelevant as long as the space is finished.

I thought that the floor in this case is exactly what matters. Concrete floors in direct contact with the earth have very high (relatively speaking) moisture content and lower resistance to ground. In my old house, you would actually get condensation on the surface in the summer, regardless of the fact that the AC was running.

 

[charlie b]

I am on the ?floor doesn?t matter? side. It is not the floor that causes the shock hazard. It is the thing that you plug into the receptacle. In unfinished basements, just like in garages, you plug in tools and make messes. In finished basements, you plug in floor lamps and TVs.

 

[iwire]

I thought that the floor in this case is exactly what matters.

If that is the case then that is what the code section should state don't you think?

 

[growler]

I don't see why there would be an arbitrary designation of a mechanical room or shop as unfinished space. The space is either finished or it isn't w/o respect to its intended use. I don't even see why drywall is necessary to be considered finished. Paint is a finish and if the concrete walls are painted they are finished IMO. A lot of motels have concrete ceilings that are just painted. Those are certainly finished spaces.

Bob you don't need paint or drywall to have a finished living space. There are many rock, brick and block walls in living spaces ( not painted).

What you need to have a finished living space is a permited and inspected area that meets the critera for a living space and then you get a certificate of occupancy. One thing you will need for a living space is a source of heat such as baseboard heaters, furnace ( they try to discourage the use of space heaters). You will need a switched light source (each room). You will need to meet insulation requirements ( different from unfinished spaces).

You need to meet the building codes for your area to have a finished living space.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

I thought that the floor in this case is exactly what matters. Concrete floors in direct contact with the earth have very high (relatively speaking) moisture content and lower resistance to ground. In my old house, you would actually get condensation on the surface in the summer, regardless of the fact that the AC was running.

Well that brings us back to the old saying...The Code says what it's says...no GFCI required in a finished basement(unless of course you have a sink or other reasons to require a GFCI). We will let the installer and inspector argue that one...in this example its a finished space...the floors were painted, probably sealed....if you don't stop there..where will the madness end

As I usually say...if you are concerned you can always exceed the minimum code standard. I only have a problem when an inspector makes this decision to exceed the minimum code for me...then we gotta fight.

 

[charlie b]

Well that brings us back to the old saying...The Code says what it's says...

The old saying? The OLD saying? :? Come on, I am not that old, and therefore neither is "Charlie's Rule." :happyno:

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Oops...I just became a future victim of post profiling. Sorry Charlie

 

[petersonra]

is there a difference between "finished space" and "finished living space"?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

is there a difference between "finished space" and "finished living space"?

Sure -- a laundry room could be a finished space but it is not a living space.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I agree that it is finished, no different than the unfinished areas but still finished.

I don't like it but that doesn't matter.

IMHO all below grade receptacles should be GFCI protected.

If I put down tile how would that finish be safer than the concrete?

 

[construct]

Just a comment: Part of the GFCI function is because the cord in some hand-held power tools in garages don't have an equipment ground and some kitchen countertop appliance cords don't have an equipment ground. So it's not always about water. Just sayin'.