Ceiling Fan Controls

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FionaZuppa

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
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Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
i am looking for options. 4 outdoor fans located under a patio cover across 50ft run. i am using rmc to each box daisy-chain style. i am looking to have a single remote with 4 channels in it to control each fan, would be nice to have speed control too.

i dont mind having a controller in each fan's canopy, but i want a single remote (small as possible, etc).

any suggestions ?
 
Maestro Control

Maestro Control

Lutron Maestro wireless fan control paired with a pico remote will give you this ability. You can link all of your fans to one pico to come on at the same time. If you want more control options, you step up to radio ra2.
 
i forgot to mention, i have no wall box for a switch, the controllers themselves are the on/off device. its basically 20A gfi from panel out to a outdoor kitchen which feeds the ceiling fans via single 14/2.

i do have room to add a larger junction box, something like a 7x7x3, i could then homerun each fan to that box where a controller could live. but i would then need to homerun using 14/3, which isnt a big deal, just need to find such controller, etc.
 
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Do I understand you that you have a 20 amp circuit with 14 gauge switch leg? I t also seems like you have one switch leg for all the fans, yes?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Do I understand you that you have a 20 amp circuit with 14 gauge switch leg? I t also seems like you have one switch leg for all the fans, yes?
Click to expand...

well, not exactly.
20a gfi breaker in main panel, 12/2 runs out ~100ft to a junction box, from there 14/2 feeds all the fans (wireless controller is the "switch" for the fans, etc). this is how it was submitted for permit, and was approved.

i called Lutron, they are lacking in integrated controls but the radioRA2 with tabletop remote can get most of the functionality i am looking for. the pita of it is that since their integration is kinda sucky i would need to use two Maestro controllers per fan !! i would need a 8gang box to accommodate it all, plus a spot to mount and hide radioRA2.

Lutron has a junction box form factor they are working on, but they currently only have switch and 0-10v dimmer in this form factor.

i am not 100% sure, seems like small/micro form factor integrated automation for residential just isnt mature yet.


instead of adding wall-warts to the structure i might just use the std canopy type of controllers that can be linked to a single remote via channel setting. i wont have independent controls but i wont have all the extra stuff and costs either..... with std canopy controllers i could have 4 remotes, or 2 fans on one 2 fans on the other, or all 4 fans on one remote (since they are based on the channel selected).
 
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How did that get approved with a 20 amp circuit? This is not compliant.

Not sure how you can control this. It would be easier if there were 4 switch legs instead of one. :D
 
Dennis Alwon said:
How did that get approved with a 20 amp circuit? This is not compliant.

Not sure how you can control this. It would be easier if there were 4 switch legs instead of one. :D
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NEC 310.16, 14awg has ampacity of 20a (25a thhn @ 90deg C), and, the 14/2 is running four fixed loads (4 fans, about 8amps rated total). the breaker is not greater than the wire rating. i think that's how it was viewed.

a canopy controller is the switch for each fan.
 
FionaZuppa said:
NEC 310.16, 14awg has ampacity of 20a (25a thhn @ 90deg C), and, the 14/2 is running four fixed loads (4 fans, about 8amps rated total). the breaker is not greater than the wire rating. i think that's how it was viewed.

a canopy controller is the switch for each fan.
Click to expand...


14 only has an ampacity of 25 amps for de-rating. NM cable is rated 60C and art. 240.4(D)(3) requires a 15 amp circuit except for special condition in (G)
 
Dennis Alwon said:
14 only has an ampacity of 25 amps for de-rating. NM cable is rated 60C and art. 240.4(D)(3) requires a 15 amp circuit except for special condition in (G)
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310.16, doesnt that say THHN copper is rated 90C ? i am 14/2 THHN in 1/2" conduit.

http://www.mikeholt.com/nec-conductor-sizing-and-protection.php

overcurrent device of 20a is ok.

conductor size of 125% of continuous load = 10a,.......... 14awg of 20ampacity (90C or less) is 100% more than the calculated continuous load.

where's the issue?
 
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sorry, its 8a non-continuous load, the 125% rule not apply
but correction factor does, i'll take max yearly temp as ambient since it is outside, THHN copper 104F factor of 0.88 (75C column due to termination temp limit).

20a * 0.88 = 17.6a

but, the examples i see for non-continous load factor calculations use the 90C column, in this case 14ampacity 90C = 25a
but using tye 90C factor & 25a * 0.91 = 22.75a

so my 20a breaker is not less than that
 
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FionaZuppa said:
sorry, its 8a non-continuous load, the 125% rule not apply
but correction factor does, i'll take max yearly temp as ambient since it is outside, THHN copper 104F factor of 0.88 (75C column due to termination temp limit).

20a * 0.88 = 17.6a

but, the examples i see for non-continous load factor calculations use the 90C column, in this case 14ampacity 90C = 25a
but using tye 90C factor & 25a * 0.91 = 22.75a

so my 20a breaker is not less than that
Click to expand...

sorry, meant to say, wire is not less than breaker, and 90C column because its THHN wire.


310.16 says at bottom of chart
* Small Condutors. Unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E) through (G), the overcurrent protection shall not exceed 15 amperes for 14 AWG
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btw, thats a misspell in 310.16

why the restriction if for non-continuous load? my calculation is more than 15a ?? example, derate 14awg THHN 104F ambient with just two current carrying conductors in the raceway.
 
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you cannot protect a 14 gauge conductor at 20 amps. I stated the article. The load on the wire is irrelevant. Put a 15 amp breaker and you will be compliant. art. 334.80, I think, for nm states that 60C is to be used
 
Dennis Alwon said:
you cannot protect a 14 gauge conductor at 20 amps. I stated the article. The load on the wire is irrelevant. Put a 15 amp breaker and you will be compliant. art. 334.80, I think, for nm states that 60C is to be used
Click to expand...

why do you keep saying "NM", i have THHN wire.
 
FionaZuppa said:
why do you keep saying "NM", i have THHN wire.
Click to expand...

At one point you said 14/2 so I assume that is nm cable. Regardless you cannot use overcurrent protective device at 90C since the breaker is only rated 75C

Also art. 240.4 limits 14 wire to 15amps.

Look at 110.14(C)...
 
Fiona, all the calculations that you are doing is insignificant. Start with 110.14(C). Then go to 240.4 and then table 310.16. Now look at the asterisk next to conductors 18, 16, 14, 12 and 10 and look at the bottom of the table.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Fiona, all the calculations that you are doing is insignificant. Start with 110.14(C). Then go to 240.4 and then table 310.16. Now look at the asterisk next to conductors 18, 16, 14, 12 and 10 and look at the bottom of the table.
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110.14(c), chatter on this site that the lowest terminal temp end-to-end doesnt mean the whole thins is derated at that temp
see http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=114595
seems like in some special cases you could get away with smaller wire somewhere beyond the rated 75C breaker.

i will dbl check everything..... but my permit was already approved. all good info..... thanks....

but i still need my fan controller solution ;)
 
FionaZuppa said:
110.14(c), chatter on this site that the lowest terminal temp end-to-end doesnt mean the whole thins is derated at that temp
see http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=114595
seems like in some special cases you could get away with smaller wire somewhere beyond the rated 75C breaker.

i will dbl check everything..... but my permit was already approved. all good info..... thanks....

but i still need my fan controller solution ;)
Click to expand...


Again de-rating etc has nothing to do with this. You cannot use a 20 amp overcurrent protective device for 14 wire even at 90C. Can you show me where in the NEC it is allowed other than T240.4(G)?

The 75C rating is fine but T.310.15(b)(16) clearly directs us to 240.4 where 14 is limited to 15 amps in most cases.

I cannot help with the fan as I don't know what will work. Replace the 14 with #12 and run a separate run for each fan and then you can do something. I always avoid more than one fan together. Put 4 switches in the mix and then you may be able to do something- not sure but Lutron tech will know
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Again de-rating etc has nothing to do with this. You cannot use a 20 amp overcurrent protective device for 14 wire even at 90C. Can you show me where in the NEC it is allowed other than T240.4(G)?

The 75C rating is fine but T.310.15(b)(16) clearly directs us to 240.4 where 14 is limited to 15 amps in most cases.

I cannot help with the fan as I don't know what will work. Replace the 14 with #12 and run a separate run for each fan and then you can do something. I always avoid more than one fan together. Put 4 switches in the mix and then you may be able to do something- not sure but Lutron tech will know
Click to expand...

does "ceiling fan" fall into 240.4(G) as a "Motor-Operated Appliance" ??

8a(max) non-continuous load. in simplest example if everything was rated 90C it's still not allowed?

the install example is:
14/2 THHN in 1/2" conduit
device is a motor appliance, (exempt from 240.4.D under 240.4.G ??)
max ambient temp is 104F, derated per 2011NEC 310.15(B)(16) (fka 310.16)
 
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