Ceiling Fan Controls

[Dennis Alwon]

does "ceiling fan" fall into 240.4(G) as a "Motor-Operated Appliance" ??

8a(max) non-continuous load. in simplest example if everything was rated 90C it's still not allowed?

the install example is:
14/2 THHN in 1/2" conduit
device is a motor appliance, (exempt from 240.4.D under 240.4.G ??)
max ambient temp is 104F, derated per 2011NEC 310.15(B)(16) (fka 310.16)

IMO, a ceiling fan is not what is referred to in (G). It refers to art. 422. Look at 422.11(G)-- I don't think the fan qualifies. Why not just use #12 and be right.

 

[FionaZuppa]

IMO, a ceiling fan is not what is referred to in (G). It refers to art. 422. Look at 422.11(G)-- I don't think the fan qualifies. Why not just use #12 and be right.

14 is easier to pull, less $$.
but i can switch to 12. using the 75C column derating the 14 wire does fall below 20a breaker.

ok, NEC aside, whats the hazard in this specific case?

the 240.4(G) examples are showing 40a breaker with 14 wire...... seems odd to me.


from NEC

Appliance. Utilization equipment, generally other than industrial,
that is normally built in standardized sizes or types
and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or
more functions such as clothes washing, air-conditioning,
food mixing, deep frying, and so forth.

a ceiling fan kinda fits in, no?? they are built typically to std sizes, perform function of circulating air and in some cases provide lighting. of the weak examples in the definition a ceiling fan seems closest to air-conditioning.

 

[FionaZuppa]

14 is easier to pull, less $$.
but i can switch to 12. using the 75C column derating the 14 wire does fall below 20a breaker.

ok, NEC aside, whats the hazard in this specific case?

the 240.4(G) examples are showing 40a breaker with 14 wire...... seems odd to me.


from NEC


a ceiling fan kinda fits in, no?? they are built typically to std sizes, perform function of circulating air and in some cases provide lighting. of the weak examples in the definition a ceiling fan seems closest to air-conditioning.

Kmart sells ceiling fans in the "appliance" section

...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Seriously, if kmart sells batteries in the tool section is it a tool. If the batteries are sold in the appliance center does that make it an appliance.

Fiona, I am not sure what is going on but you don't seem to want to understand the code but rather you seem to want to make your case work. It is not compliant-- what else can I say- maybe someone else will chime in- you wore me out...:lol:

 

[FionaZuppa]

Seriously, if kmart sells batteries in the tool section is it a tool. If the batteries are sold in the appliance center does that make it an appliance.

Fiona, I am not sure what is going on but you don't seem to want to understand the code but rather you seem to want to make your case work. It is not compliant-- what else can I say- maybe someone else will chime in- you wore me out...:lol:

1) kmart example was some sarcasm.... :thumbsup:, but if i wanted to do deep dive on saying a ceiling fan is an appliance, i might use this example
2) but on the serious side, i can see where a ceiling fan (motor) can fit into 240.4(G) under NEC definition of "appliance"
3) the 310.16 chart, some are saying use the 75C column because the terminations are only rated 75C. i dont believe that's how the chart is used. its THHN rated at 90C, thus you use the 90C column to get the ampacity and then derate from there.
4) i just using the verbiage from NEC, which is many cases is open for interpretation. my town engineering and inspections folks are rather knowledgeable, they reviewed my plans, and approved them. did they make an error? dunno, perhaps they see it like i do....... so technically i am good to go, and the use of 14 here doesnt seem to pose any hazards, seems to right in that gray area of 14 or 12, its not like i am running 19a continuous, etc. its non-continuous 8a(max) under normal operations. from purely the physics of it all, i fail to see any potential hazard (the breaker will trip long before any wire issue). if you see a real hazard please let me know.


if later they make 14 XWYN that is rated 90C w/ 28ampacity, then 240.4(D) still applies? seems very silly. "awg" size should not be bound into the NEC verbiage !! the wire specifications and ratings should.