0-10 volt dimming

[FichterBros]

I have no experience with 0-10 volt dimming for LED and fluorescent fixtures. I am working on a project in which I mounted GE Albeo 190 watt LED high bay fixtures. The customer now wants to be able to dim the fixtures. These fixtures allow for 0-10 volt dimming but my question is this. What is the most cost effective way to run the control wiring? It is a 45 ft ceiling (rock climbing gym) and I have piping from the switch up to the bar joists. From there I planned on running everything in cable. I have done some research and have come with two choices: all class 2 wiring with low voltage controllers which would involve running a separate conduit 200ft with many bends from controller up to the ceiling and class 2 cable on the ceiling. Or use a line voltage controller with the dimmer built in such as the cooper devine or skye dimmers which I would be forced to use all class 1 wiring. If I go with option 2 then I could use same conduit and possibly 12/4 mc on the ceiling or a luminary cable that is UL listed with 12/2 mc and 16/2 twisted pair in the same jacket (essentially class 1 and class 2 in same cable). The problem with the luminary cable is that it has class 2 wiring for the control circuit and would mean I am not using all class 1 wiring. Thus, where is this luminary cable designed to be terminated? it would force class 1 and class 2 wiring in the same box without possibility of being divided. Also, with sharing the conduit as line voltage and using 12/4, would that create interference on the control wires with induced voltages? There would be two dimmers for nine fixtures. I appreciate any advice and imput. Thanks

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think it depends on the dimmer used and the driver in the light. I have a similar situation and can't get any help from manufacturer so I ran a 12/4 and a class 2 2 wire cable

 

[gar]

150214-1542 EST

Run experiments, and check for information on the datasheet.

Does the datasheet indicate that the 0-10 signal leads are isolated from the AC power wires? If so, then what is the maximum allowed voltage between them? Suppose they are isolated and up to several thousand volts difference is allowed, then the 0-10 V signal wires can be run with the AC power provided the insulation is correct for the application.

I do not believe there will be an interference problem if a low impedance source is used for the 0-10 V signal. If there was interference, then a simple 0.1 mfd ceramic disc capacitor rated at 25 V or higher shunted across the input at at the fixture end would probably reduce the problem.

If the 0-10 V control signal is not isolated, then you have other problems.

If there is no datasheet information. then check for continuity between the 0-10 V wires and the power wires. Use an ohmmeter, it is a few volts. If greater than 10 to 100 megohms, then assume there is designed isolation, but you won't know the breakdown rating. Probably several thousand volts.

Do bench testing to see how well dimming works with the 0-10 V control.

A fixture designed to work with 0-10 V control may not work well with phase shift dimming of the AC input.

.

 

[AdrianWint]

Are you sure this is 0-10V dimming? As in analogue voltage based and mostly used in theatrical lighting....

Or do you mean 1-10V dimming which is current based & is a very common system for dimming lighting fixtures?

The two are not the same, very much not compatible and require treating in very different ways.

 

[Electric-Light]

I have no experience with 0-10 volt dimming for LED and fluorescent fixtures. I am working on a project in which I mounted GE Albeo 190 watt LED high bay fixtures. The customer now wants to be able to dim the fixtures. These fixtures allow for 0-10 volt dimming but my question is this. What is the most cost effective way to run the control wiring? It is a 45 ft ceiling (rock climbing gym) and I have piping from the switch up to the bar joists.

Read through those. If you're going to run them in the same conduit, then, they have to be treated as if they're 120 or 277v hot wires as if something loosens in the j-box or the conduit is drilled through,any of the wires can become bonded to each other. This is the rationale for reclassification to class 1. A 0-10v light level sensor reclassified as class 1 for the purpose of code would be treated like a socket powering a 5 watt night lamp.

http://ecmweb.com/cee-news-archive/conductors-same-conduit
http://www.ecmag.com/section/lighting/control-wiring-methods

To keep it as class 2, you shouldn't need a conduit. You just can't run it in the same conduit as the power. At the wall control, I would split into two jboxes, one for the line voltage and one for the 0-10v. This would allow you to restrain the wire, so pulling on the wire would not rip things out of the dimming control. From there, it's like a thermostat cable.

18/4 thermostat cable would work, but shielded is preferable. You'd use green/yellow for one dimmer, red/white for the other dimmer. I'd still use a J-box for each splice so tugging on wires do not pull out the splices.

If there is no datasheet information. then check for continuity between the 0-10 V wires and the power wires. Use an ohmmeter, it is a few volts. If greater than 10 to 100 megohms, then assume there is designed isolation, but you won't know the breakdown rating. Probably several thousand volts.

No need. the ballast/driver/light emitting decorations will say "class 2" which means isolation is present.

 

[sparkyrick]

I'm having the same issues with some dimmable LED cans I'm installing at a church. I wanted to run the 0-10V control leads in the same conduit as the power, but I couldn't find any information from the ballast manufacturer if that was acceptable.

 

[gar]

150215-1510 EST

sparkyrick:

If the wire used for the 0-10 V signal is rated for use in immeadiate contact with the AC power wiring, then why should you expect a problem? If you are worried about noise, then put a low pass filter at the 0-10 V input.

A 100 to 1000 ohm resistor in series with a 0.1 mfd ceramic disk in parallel with a 25 mfd electrolytic could be sufficient. If the input impedance of the 0-10 V input is 10,000 ohms, then a 1000 ohm series resistor in the filter would reduce the control voltage to 0-9 V. But you can use a 12 V source instead of 10 V.

Study your components, do some experiments, and design some appropriate circuit to solve any problems you might uncover.

.

 

[sparkyrick]

150215-1510 EST

sparkyrick:

If the wire used for the 0-10 V signal is rated for use in immeadiate contact with the AC power wiring, then why should you expect a problem? If you are worried about noise, then put a low pass filter at the 0-10 V input.

A 100 to 1000 ohm resistor in series with a 0.1 mfd ceramic disk in parallel with a 25 mfd electrolytic could be sufficient. If the input impedance of the 0-10 V input is 10,000 ohms, then a 1000 ohm series resistor in the filter would reduce the control voltage to 0-9 V. But you can use a 12 V source instead of 10 V.

Study your components, do some experiments, and design some appropriate circuit to solve any problems you might uncover.

.

I'm worried about their being an installation violation/warranty issue with the dimmer rack if they specifically say not to mix wires. Once the rack is on-site (the church is supplying) and I can finally read all the manuals, I could be sure one way or another. Fortunately this is a small system and I'm only dimming two banks of LED can lights. So the separate 0-10V wiring wasn't that big of a deal. But if this was a larger system with multiple banks of 0-10V, it would be a different story.

 

[Joe Villani]

Here is what appears to be a great product if you're using MC cable or if using MC cable is an option:
http://www.afcweb.com/mc-metal-clad-cables/mc-luminary

 

[Electric-Light]

This is a cross-post by the threadstarter. I'm posting a link to there, so everyone's kept in the loop without wasted efforts.

See my latest response there:
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f8/0-10-volt-dimming-89985/

Correct me if I'm wrong...
1.) 0-10v is functionally related to lighting. To reclassify as class 1 means everything gets treated as if they're all capable of causing a shock or starting a fire.


OR...

2.) You can run 18/2 thermostat cable if you pig tail from switch box so you use proper 600v rated wires from switch box where it could come in contact with live wire, then, join the 18/2 CL2 with 14/2 600v in a box situated right next to the switch. This box can used to volt/short the control wires for testing purposes, so there's a functional value as well.

Option 1 makes a lot of sense if the power wires are not there and you're running them now, but if they're already there and you just want to add 0-10v control, #2 makes a lot more sense. It's a little bit different than security system wires, because there's generally no need to hide them from tampering like you would security system wires.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

I have no experience with 0-10 volt dimming for LED and fluorescent fixtures. I am working on a project in which I mounted GE Albeo 190 watt LED high bay fixtures. The customer now wants to be able to dim the fixtures. These fixtures allow for 0-10 volt dimming but my question is this. What is the most cost effective way to run the control wiring? It is a 45 ft ceiling (rock climbing gym) and I have piping from the switch up to the bar joists. From there I planned on running everything in cable. I have done some research and have come with two choices: all class 2 wiring with low voltage controllers which would involve running a separate conduit 200ft with many bends from controller up to the ceiling and class 2 cable on the ceiling. Or use a line voltage controller with the dimmer built in such as the cooper devine or skye dimmers which I would be forced to use all class 1 wiring. If I go with option 2 then I could use same conduit and possibly 12/4 mc on the ceiling or a luminary cable that is UL listed with 12/2 mc and 16/2 twisted pair in the same jacket (essentially class 1 and class 2 in same cable). The problem with the luminary cable is that it has class 2 wiring for the control circuit and would mean I am not using all class 1 wiring. Thus, where is this luminary cable designed to be terminated? it would force class 1 and class 2 wiring in the same box without possibility of being divided. Also, with sharing the conduit as line voltage and using 12/4, would that create interference on the control wires with induced voltages? There would be two dimmers for nine fixtures. I appreciate any advice and imput. Thanks

Have you considered the new MC-LED? or MC Luminary? Cables that are out on the market. They incorporate the traditional power conductors with Class 2 or 3 conductors ( inside of a 30 mil PVC Nonmetallic Jacket) and allow you to install the power and control to the luminaries.

 

[atomicpunk]

LED driver failure

LED driver failure

I have experienced a lot of LED drivers failing using cooper wiring DF10P -C1,The specs do not show a problem with wiring class 1 with approved fixtures.
I used 12-4 mc from dimmer to the fixtures ,and daisy chain to multiple fixtures there after. I believe I'm getting induce noise in the dimming circuit causing failure.
Can someone recommend a affordable fix ?
Do I need to put a separate manufacturer's power pack at first fixture and then wire Class 2 in separate cable?

 

[atomicpunk]

Class 1 device

Class 1 device

I do not believe this device is a class 2 power supply as defined in the code, also this system is completely installed and would require complete rewire.

 

[Electric-Light]

I have experienced a lot of LED drivers failing using cooper wiring DF10P -C1,The specs do not show a problem with wiring class 1 with approved fixtures.
I used 12-4 mc from dimmer to the fixtures ,and daisy chain to multiple fixtures there after. I believe I'm getting induce noise in the dimming circuit causing failure.
Can someone recommend a affordable fix ?
Do I need to put a separate manufacturer's power pack at first fixture and then wire Class 2 in separate cable?

Well, what happens when you disconnect the dimming wires and apply power directly on the drivers suspected as faulty?

 

[atomicpunk]

Well, what happens when you disconnect the dimming wires and apply power directly on the drivers suspected as faulty?

I applied 277 v power only to fixture, it did not illuminate.

 

[gar]

150227-0754 EST

With 277 power applied do the next two tests:

1. Short the 0-10 V input leads. My guess is that this should be the fully dimmed condition. Thus, the same as when the leads were not connected together and no voltage was applied. No light output.

2. Apply some voltage above 0, but not greater than 10 V, of the correct polarity to the 0-10 V input. A 9 V battery would be convenient. If 0 control input voltage produced no light output, then a voltage near 10 V should produce near full brightness. If there is no light output with a near 10 V input control signal, then the fixture is defective.

.

 

[atomicpunk]

Dead driver

Dead driver

I have at least 10 of these fixtures fail, components in driver are burnt.
I need to come up with a method such as MOV at the driver for each fixture or change to get 0-10 dimming conductors out of same cable as light power.

 

[gar]

150227-1742 EST

atomicpunk:

An analysis of what failed in drive is needed.

If we assume that in the driver the 0-10 circuitry is dielectrically isolated from the power part of the driver, then is the failure only in the 0-10 V area, or only in the power area, or in both areas?

Is there optical isolaion between the 0-10 V area, and the power area?

I judge there is no reason for only 0-10 V area failure just because the control wires to the 0-10 input are in the same conduit with thew power wires.

.

 

[Electric-Light]

150227-0754 EST
2. Apply some voltage above 0, but not greater than 10 V, of the correct polarity to the 0-10 V input. A 9 V battery would be convenient. If 0 control input voltage produced no light output, then a voltage near 10 V should produce near full brightness. If there is no light output with a near 10 V input control signal, then the fixture is defective.

.

This is not necessary. The ballasts/drivers designed for lighting applications are sourcing. So, nothing connected to the fixture defaults to full output.

 

[gar]

150228-1325 EST

Electric-Light:

If all 0-10 dimmers have an internal voltage source, then what is used to control many fixtures as a group. I know ways to do it, but my question is what is normally done.

Even if a dimmer does have an internal voltage source, then it still can be useful to test with an external voltage source for troublshooting.

.