Reason #37 why I don't get all stressed about how connections look.

[iwire]

I am not promoting sloppy ugly work I am just pointing out that electricity does not have eyes and a sloppy looking connection can perform fine.

Here is a motor switch in a roof top make up air fan. The liquid-tight conduit supplying it had literally rotted away leaving the THWN exposed to the weather. I think we can assume if it has been in service so long that the LFMC had rotted away that this has been like this for some time. I was there to replace the LFMC and I also swapped out the 10 AWGs with 12 AWGs so I could terminate them a bit neater.

I included a close up as I know someone will ask about the insulation damage on the black conductor. I don't know what caused that damage but it does not appear to be connection related to me.

Click on images for larger versions

 

[ceb58]

Gotta love the Y on the red wire

 

[augie47]

Looks like we just ignored that pesky green wire.

 

[iwire]

Looks like we just ignored that pesky green wire.

The green was landed under a 1/4" x 20 hex nut with no washer and was holding the box to the unit.

I put in a grounding pigtail to the box.

There is no grounding terminal on that motor switch. Not sure I need one with that cover.

 

[electricalist]

The only hang up I have is when it makes is hard to seperate to figure out or to replace something . In that picture Id have to cut those wires and re strip to change the switch because I dont know how to wrap screws with a wire in chaos mode.
I think it can be said that very inteligent people dont need to be as neat and organized,,,because they figure things out easier.

 

[480sparky]

My question would be this: What kind of load is impressed on these connections?

Meaning: would those exact same connections last as long if the load on them was much higher?

Let's make up some numbers. Let's pretend this particular install has a motor that draws 35 amps on start-up, and runs at 7 amps. You come along, and say, "Gee those connections held up well!" Now put those exact same connections on a motor that draws 80 amps on start up and runs at 22 amps. Would you be posting a photo of the charred remains and proclaim, "Wow, look at this hack work! Dumb idjit didn't know how to terminate things properly!"

 

[kwired]

My question would be this: What kind of load is impressed on these connections?

Meaning: would those exact same connections last as long if the load on them was much higher?

Let's make up some numbers. Let's pretend this particular install has a motor that draws 35 amps on start-up, and runs at 7 amps. You come along, and say, "Gee those connections held up well!" Now put those exact same connections on a motor that draws 80 amps on start up and runs at 22 amps. Would you be posting a photo of the charred remains and proclaim, "Wow, look at this hack work! Dumb idjit didn't know how to terminate things properly!"

And even with better looking terminations the 80 amp start/22 amp run motor possibly has failed connection at some point but the 7 amp motor runs seemingly forever with no issues at the switch, in fact the mechanical functions of the switch maybe fail before any electrical component. Though that was more true with older equipment then most of the junk sold in last 15 -20 years

 

[iwire]

My question would be this: What kind of load is impressed on these connections?

A valid point.

I can't tell you the numbers but it was just a small motor running on 3 phase 208 so it had to be low.

Meaning: would those exact same connections last as long if the load on them was much higher?

I don't see anything in those connections that lead me to believe they would fail with a full load on them. But I am not a forensic investigator.

Let's make up some numbers. Let's pretend this particular install has a motor that draws 35 amps on start-up, and runs at 7 amps. You come along, and say, "Gee those connections held up well!" Now put those exact same connections on a motor that draws 80 amps on start up and runs at 22 amps. Would you be posting a photo of the charred remains and proclaim, "Wow, look at this hack work! Dumb idjit didn't know how to terminate things properly!"

Doubtful I would have posted it if it failed unless it was a spectacular failure. Stuff fails all the time and we get plenty of those examples. :happyyes:

 

[under8ed]

"Reason #37"

My mentor, a union trained electrician that had become a company owner; would chastise someone for an excessively neatly wired panel. He insisted this only created the illusion of quality work, & that the real proof is determined by passing inspection and future reliability. I'm certain profit may have also been on his mind though. I have always retained this cost effective work ethic, even though I now work for a large company that seems to favor that "over the top" neatness.

 

[Smart $]

"Reason #37"

My mentor, a union trained electrician that had become a company owner; would chastise someone for an excessively neatly wired panel. He insisted this only created the illusion of quality work, & that the real proof is determined by passing inspection and future reliability. I'm certain profit may have also been on his mind though. I have always retained this cost effective work ethic, even though I now work for a large company that seems to favor that "over the top" neatness.

The thing about being neat and tidy is if you practice it consistently, the time it takes can actually be less than a more hap-hazard, get 'er done approach.. in some areas, not all.

Worked for a contractor once upon a time that didn't want to see any box offsets in conduit above suspended ceilings. I'll give him that one...

 

[under8ed]

The thing about being neat and tidy is if you practice it consistently, the time it takes can actually be less than a more hap-hazard, get 'er done approach..

I agree completely, order is essential. it's just that we have all seen work that would make a great poster for O.C.D.; where you know the electrician had to go back and adjust every conductor back to perfect parallel after landing each new one.

 

[kwired]

I agree completely, order is essential. it's just that we have all seen work that would make a great poster for O.C.D.; where you know the electrician had to go back and adjust every conductor back to perfect parallel after landing each new one.

Or those that can't sleep at night if they know all the slots on trim plate screws at an install site were not all oriented in the same direction.

I like to make up a panelboard in a fairly neat fashion, but never do so to absolute perfection.

I find it easier to make things neater at the time of initial install, but adding some circuits later is not always as easy to make quite as neat. For one thing it usually is easier to make up neutral and/or equipment grounding conductors first then do the ungrounded conductors, but when adding circuits later or to an existing install you often have ungrounded conductors in the way to make up the neutrals or EGC's as easily as they were done the first time around.

 

[Strathead]

"Reason #37"

My mentor, a union trained electrician that had become a company owner; would chastise someone for an excessively neatly wired panel. He insisted this only created the illusion of quality work, & that the real proof is determined by passing inspection and future reliability. I'm certain profit may have also been on his mind though. I have always retained this cost effective work ethic, even though I now work for a large company that seems to favor that "over the top" neatness.

He and I would not have gotten along. A thoughtful, meticulous journeyman can wire up a panel perfectly neat just as quickly as he can wire one up messy. And the added bonus is that the inspector and anyone else looking will be assured (whether true or false) that a similar level of care is projected throughout the project. Making the inspection go smoother. To me it is the same as lining up you screws on your wiring devices.

 

[Strathead]

Or those that can't sleep at night if they know all the slots on trim plate screws at an install site were not all oriented in the same direction.

I like to make up a panelboard in a fairly neat fashion, but never do so to absolute perfection.

I find it easier to make things neater at the time of initial install, but adding some circuits later is not always as easy to make quite as neat. For one thing it usually is easier to make up neutral and/or equipment grounding conductors first then do the ungrounded conductors, but when adding circuits later or to an existing install you often have ungrounded conductors in the way to make up the neutrals or EGC's as easily as they were done the first time around.

I totally agree with the last statement and totally disagree with the implications of the first one. Have any of you here caught that show called brain games on History channel I think? If not, it is a must see! I 100% believe that have cover plate screws lined up is essential to a subconscious conclusion that a job is well done. I believe, but can't prove that when you walk in to a room, things like square and plumb, level pictures and devices and yes, lined up screws are all assessed by your brain and give you an immediate sense of order or chaos.

 

[Strathead]

Oh and those are some really old looking hands in that picture!

 

[kwired]

I totally agree with the last statement and totally disagree with the implications of the first one. Have any of you here caught that show called brain games on History channel I think? If not, it is a must see! I 100% believe that have cover plate screws lined up is essential to a subconscious conclusion that a job is well done. I believe, but can't prove that when you walk in to a room, things like square and plumb, level pictures and devices and yes, lined up screws are all assessed by your brain and give you an immediate sense of order or chaos.

If it makes you feel good - line up all the screw slots, I'm not going to notice them - especially since my vision seems to be declining enough that I would need to walk up close to each wall plate to even notice. Otherwise yes I do find myself looking around in a room and I do notice when something is not plumb or square that otherwise probably should be. I do notice switch and outlets that are not level but not the slot of the cover screw. Ground up/down on receptacles does usually catch my eye as well, but I'd bet most non electricians never even think about that.

I'm sure if you walked into a room full of dentists most (maybe all) would look much harder at people's teeth then I would.

 

[electricalist]

I agree Kwired . symmetry is a feeling the home owner gets without knowing. If someone says put can lights in my living room but isn't sure where. I grid the room and find as many equal spacing s as I can so when they walk in it seems like its correct.)

 

[ActionDave]

I agree Kwired . symmetry is a feeling the home owner gets without knowing. If someone says put can lights in my living room but isn't sure where. I grid the room and find as many equal spacing s as I can so when they walk in it seems like its correct.)

I put the the cans in my house in a random pattern. I hate the perfect, institutional, ugly, equally spaced, can lay out. It's a home, not an airport runway.

 

[Strathead]

If it makes you feel good - line up all the screw slots, I'm not going to notice them - especially since my vision seems to be declining enough that I would need to walk up close to each wall plate to even notice. Otherwise yes I do find myself looking around in a room and I do notice when something is not plumb or square that otherwise probably should be. I do notice switch and outlets that are not level but not the slot of the cover screw. Ground up/down on receptacles does usually catch my eye as well, but I'd bet most non electricians never even think about that.

I'm sure if you walked into a room full of dentists most (maybe all) would look much harder at people's teeth then I would.

You missed my point. My was not that you notice this or other issues, but that your brain does and it influences you.

 

[Strathead]

I agree Kwired . symmetry is a feeling the home owner gets without knowing. If someone says put can lights in my living room but isn't sure where. I grid the room and find as many equal spacing s as I can so when they walk in it seems like its correct.)

really, I thought kwired was the one advocating that it doesn't really matter.