Reason #37 why I don't get all stressed about how connections look.

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under8ed said:
"Reason #37"

My mentor, a union trained electrician that had become a company owner; would chastise someone for an excessively neatly wired panel. He insisted this only created the illusion of quality work, & that the real proof is determined by passing inspection and future reliability. I'm certain profit may have also been on his mind though. I have always retained this cost effective work ethic, even though I now work for a large company that seems to favor that "over the top" neatness.
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I would agree. Sloppy work is bad work. Over the top neatness is not bad work just, well.......over the top.
 
ActionDave said:
I would agree. Sloppy work is bad work. Over the top neatness is not bad work just, well.......over the top.
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I guess that depends on what is over the top though. When I was in the field and doing panel make up regularly, they were very neat, especially when all the conductors only entered from the top or from the bottom. And it took as little or less time to do it that way. Just like say, you brought all your conductors to a can in the ceiling. Then provided home runs to the panel. I don't know about you, but I would split the circuits up odd and even in the can and pull the down to the appropriate side of the panel. Is that too neat? I contend that it would actually make the final panel connections quicker. I land all of my wires and then I put the numbers on them. That way they are all in line with each other. Is that too neat, or am I saving time because I do them all in one step?

I used to do wiring harnesses when I worked on Submarines after doing them for a while I learned how to lay the wire in to the bundle so that they broke out on the other end in order. Yet I was the fastest person in my shop doing make up.

In conclusion I would state that over the top neatness is only over the top when it means the person did and then redid work or took an inordinate amount of time to be neat. It isn't at all about how neat the work actually is.

I go back to lining up the screws. It takes exactly zero seconds more to line up your screws than it does to let them be crooked. One shows a person who is thoughtful and cares about his work and the other shows a person who doesn't care.
 
Strathead said:
really, I thought kwired was the one advocating that it doesn't really matter.
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Not all details have the same level of importance is what I am advocating, and just because an installer doesn't line up screw slots perfectly on cover plates doesn't mean he doesn't care about things that matter even more.


You probably can find a guy that is particular about lining up all screw slots - it is something that shows on the outside to the owner/user, but he may be missing other important things that do not appear from the outside, like proper make up of equipment grounding conductors. This is exactly what a lot of "house flippers" do, attempt to sell the cosmetically covered problems and if you don't know what qualities you should be looking for you are sold on "looks".

Some can also run perfectly arranged conductors in a control panel or load center and it can look impressive - but if conductors do not meet minimum ampacity requirements for the application that perfection in routing them is not going to change the fact they will develop increased heat if undersized, which has greater potential of burning the place down, undersized conductors or minor "sloppiness" in how they are routed in the panel?

Want another one - how about a used car that has been in a collision and then restored? Just because it looks good doesn't mean they didn't cut corners at making it look good. I think you can figure out the many possibilities that can happen here.
 
kwired said:
Not all details have the same level of importance is what I am advocating, and just because an installer doesn't line up screw slots perfectly on cover plates doesn't mean he doesn't care about things that matter even more.
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You have your opinion, I have mine. To me the first shows a more likely propensity for the second. Now, when it has never been pointed out to the person for real, then you have a point. When it has been pointed out it shows a lackadaisical attitude.
 
Strathead said:
You have your opinion, I have mine. To me the first shows a more likely propensity for the second. Now, when it has never been pointed out to the person for real, then you have a point. When it has been pointed out it shows a lackadaisical attitude.
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Do you make certain the device mounting screws all have same head orientation or that set screws on raceway fittings all are same orientation? I do prefer that the set screws on the fitting all face away from mounting surface - some of it for looks, some of it for easier access to the screw. Where they are stacked behind one another like at a panelboard - I usually will turn the rear ones at an angle so you can get a screwdriver on them easier - front ones will usually still face forward. But that is my preference - I do not condemn an installation done by others on this aspect alone.
 
I've worked with totally sloppy guys and with totally OCD guys. Both have done safe installations and both try my patience. I shoot for somewhere in the middle. My aim is to never have my work photographed - either as an example of someone who totally goes over the top to be neat, or as part of a forensic report ;)
 
Clean & neat work is a sign of preparations & technics IMO. When I was in the field as owner operator my technics for speed incorporated neat & tidy work. Not hard to develope, laymen customers appreciate workmanship & I could have pride in my work. win,win,win for me personally. A little planning goes a long way towards profit & contracts.
 
kwired said:
Do you make certain the device mounting screws all have same head orientation or that set screws on raceway fittings all are same orientation? I do prefer that the set screws on the fitting all face away from mounting surface - some of it for looks, some of it for easier access to the screw. Where they are stacked behind one another like at a panelboard - I usually will turn the rear ones at an angle so you can get a screwdriver on them easier - front ones will usually still face forward. But that is my preference - I do not condemn an installation done by others on this aspect alone.
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To me they are apples and oranges. I like my screws up and down. If another preferred them all sideways I would be fine with that. I do the same as you when doing panels. A better analogy would be, do you line up you couplings on a strut run. Now I don't consider myself OCD. partly because I don't come down yes or no on that question. But they aren't going to be haphazard. If you are starting with 10 conduits and they all take a bend then I am OK with cutting them off or with letting the bend causing them to stagger equally. I am not OK with one in the middle being 12" shorter than the rest because you messed up a bend and cut it off. This is all assuming exposed work.

There are exceptions to every rule, but I contend that someone who pays attention to the details you see is also the one most like to pay attention to the details you don't.
 
iwire said:
I am not promoting sloppy ugly work I am just pointing out that electricity does not have eyes and a sloppy looking connection can perform fine.

Here is a motor switch in a roof top make up air fan. The liquid-tight conduit supplying it had literally rotted away leaving the THWN exposed to the weather. I think we can assume if it has been in service so long that the LFMC had rotted away that this has been like this for some time. I was there to replace the LFMC and I also swapped out the 10 AWGs with 12 AWGs so I could terminate them a bit neater. :)

I included a close up as I know someone will ask about the insulation damage on the black conductor. I don't know what caused that damage but it does not appear to be connection related to me.

Click on images for larger versions

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Just my $.02.
I was taught many years ago that stranded wire was not to be wrapped on a screw terminal in this fashion, it was to be terminated in a fork or ring terminal and then installed. Only solid wire was to be wrapped around a screw.


BT Electric
 
btelectric said:
Just my $.02.
I was taught many years ago that stranded wire was not to be wrapped on a screw terminal in this fashion, it was to be terminated in a fork or ring terminal and then installed. Only solid wire was to be wrapped around a screw.


BT Electric
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That maybe what you were taught but both UL and the NEC allow it.
 
btelectric said:
Just my $.02.
I was taught many years ago that stranded wire was not to be wrapped on a screw terminal in this fashion, it was to be terminated in a fork or ring terminal and then installed. Only solid wire was to be wrapped around a screw.


BT Electric
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That is a good practice, but unless the manufacturer requires it, it isn't "code".
 
btelectric said:
Just my $.02.
I was taught many years ago that stranded wire was not to be wrapped on a screw terminal in this fashion, it was to be terminated in a fork or ring terminal and then installed. Only solid wire was to be wrapped around a screw.


BT Electric
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When I am wiring up audio connectors I tin stranded conductors with solder before landing them under a screw.
 
480sparky said:
Huh? Exceeding the code minimum isn't allowed?

When did this happen?
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Unless I misunderstand your statement that was the purpose of the quotation marks around code. Meaning it isn't required by code unless the manufacturer requires it. Then it is. Well sort of is, if it is part of the manufacturer's requirement and the product is listed and the code requires that product to be listed then it is code

(edited so that I didn't get another nit picky criticism)
 
Strathead said:
I guess that depends on what is over the top though. When I was in the field and doing panel make up regularly, they were very neat, especially when all the conductors only entered from the top or from the bottom. And it took as little or less time to do it that way. Just like say, you brought all your conductors to a can in the ceiling. Then provided home runs to the panel. I don't know about you, but I would split the circuits up odd and even in the can and pull the down to the appropriate side of the panel. Is that too neat? I contend that it would actually make the final panel connections quicker. I land all of my wires and then I put the numbers on them. That way they are all in line with each other. Is that too neat, or am I saving time because I do them all in one step?

I used to do wiring harnesses when I worked on Submarines after doing them for a while I learned how to lay the wire in to the bundle so that they broke out on the other end in order. Yet I was the fastest person in my shop doing make up.

In conclusion I would state that over the top neatness is only over the top when it means the person did and then redid work or took an inordinate amount of time to be neat. It isn't at all about how neat the work actually is.

I go back to lining up the screws. It takes exactly zero seconds more to line up your screws than it does to let them be crooked. One shows a person who is thoughtful and cares about his work and the other shows a person who doesn't care.
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I think we are close to the same opinion. I'm not the neatest guy on the crew, not the messiest. What you describe I would call good planning, which always make things go easier.
 
PetrosA said:
I've worked with totally sloppy guys and with totally OCD guys. Both have done safe installations and both try my patience. I shoot for somewhere in the middle. My aim is to never have my work photographed - either as an example of someone who totally goes over the top to be neat, or as part of a forensic report ;)
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That's where I'm at.
 
PetrosA said:
I shoot for somewhere in the middle. My aim is to never have my work photographed - either as an example of someone who totally goes over the top to be neat, or as part of a forensic report ;)
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:thumbsup:

:D

That is really were I am at, I don't want to be used as an example on either side.

That said this thread has pretty much gone how I figured, a whole bunch of people eager to say they do better work than that.

Now if everyone does all this great work why do I run into so much average to poor work out in real life? :p
 
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