How early in design process can drawing be issued for permitting

[philly]

I was curious how early in the design process the electrical design package can be issued for permitting purposes. In the design process we typically have design milestones of 30%, 70%, 100% and Issued for Construction (IFC).

In order to get a jump on the permitting process can the content in one of the earlier design milestones be used for permitting as opposed to waiting until the final IFC drawings are issued? Is there certain content that must be included as a bare minimum for permitting?

As an example I have a 100% package that essentially has all of the design content but will have some minor tweaks/revisions before it is issued for construction. Can this 100% package be used for permitting or must all the revisions be make and the IFC's be used for permitting.

Once a package is stamped and issued for permitting, can changes be made?

I am fairly new to the permitting procedure so any insight would be helpful.

Thanks

 

[kwired]

I would say that mostly depends on the AHJ that issues the permits.

Electrical plans however generally do not have as much impact on things like environmental issues, or special use conditions that are sometimes holding up a project and those aspects need some early plans just to get approval to even start any earth moving with the project.

 

[mgookin]

I will parrot kwired in that permitting is a local AHJ policy often regulated somewhat by state law or administrative code.

Are you just talking about the E sheets?

Generally speaking, in any decent jurisdiction, you can approach them with your concept and request a pre-application meeting or just get 10 minutes on the phone with them so you don't spend lots of effort on something only to find out they need it presented differently. But submitting half of your work as permit drawings is not advised.

It is commonplace for changes to be made to permit sets both during plan review to comply with plan review comments, and after the permit is issued to satisfy change orders. In those cases you file revisions.

An inspector technically is not allowed to approve any construction which is in conflict with the plans, so you'll need your revised sheets submitted, reviewed, signed off and back out to the field before you can pass inspection on the changes if the permit is already issued. That assumes the inspector is going to read the plans.

 

[philly]

I will parrot kwired in that permitting is a local AHJ policy often regulated somewhat by state law or administrative code.

Are you just talking about the E sheets?

Yes I am just talking about the E-Sheets. This particular project only involves an electrical upgrade so there are only electrical design drawings.

Generally speaking, in any decent jurisdiction, you can approach them with your concept and request a pre-application meeting or just get 10 minutes on the phone with them so you don't spend lots of effort on something only to find out they need it presented differently. But submitting half of your work as permit drawings is not advised.

It is commonplace for changes to be made to permit sets both during plan review to comply with plan review comments, and after the permit is issued to satisfy change orders. In those cases you file revisions.

An inspector technically is not allowed to approve any construction which is in conflict with the plans, so you'll need your revised sheets submitted, reviewed, signed off and back out to the field before you can pass inspection on the changes if the permit is already issued. That assumes the inspector is going to read the plans.

I should also note that this project is at an industrial location. Not sure how much that changes things. Most of what I have found Online in regards to requirements pertains to commercial buildings.

 

[kwired]

Not all places need the plans either, some just inspect what is there for NEC compliance - any design issues beyond code requirements are between designer, builder and owner.

 

[jglavin427]

I would say that mostly depends on the AHJ that issues the permits.

Electrical plans however generally do not have as much impact on things like environmental issues, or special use conditions that are sometimes holding up a project and those aspects need some early plans just to get approval to even start any earth moving with the project.

The exception to this would be for exterior light level calculations, at least around here, which are often required in the planning submittals so the AHJ can review your trespass, pole heights, and so forth. Often this happens well before the construction documents are finished, so you have to be careful to make sure the final design meets all the same criteria set forth in the initial planning submittals.

As for the rest of the electrical plans, I'd say you can generally submit your 100% drawings for permit (and we often do this) with the assumption that any changes to the IFC set will be minor and not represent any code-related changes to the design (such as adding major loads to your calculations, or drastically altering equipment clearances). You also want to make sure that you issue a stamped set of whatever the final design ends up being, so that when it comes time to inspect the work the inspector has an up to date set of plans.

You most likely would not want to issue anything for permit before you're calling it a 100% set, as most building officials expect to be reviewing a complete design

ETA: Looks like I repeated some of the other comments made while writing this post! I'll also add that you don't want to drastically alter the scope of work between initial permit submittal and subsequent revisions, as they base the permit fees on the expected construction costs.

 

[flatlander]

I am lost here. Been a Electrician for over 20 years. Why would anyone knowingly submit any plan for permit that is less than 100%. To me that is fraudulent.

I suppose you submit for bid also a half baked set. Leaving a prospective contractor to get screwed.

 

[jglavin427]

I am lost here. Been a Electrician for over 20 years. Why would anyone knowingly submit any plan for permit that is less than 100%. To me that is fraudulent.

I suppose you submit for bid also a half baked set. Leaving a prospective contractor to get screwed.

For example, you might issue for bid and permit at the same time. Then issues are uncovered in bidding which are then incorporated into the plans.

 

[mgookin]

...

I should also note that this project is at an industrial location. Not sure how much that changes things. Most of what I have found Online in regards to requirements pertains to commercial buildings.

Some states allow an annual industrial facility permit where you just keep doing work and call for an inspection anytime something is ready to be concealed or complete.

I suggest you call the local electric inspector for the project.

 

[kwired]

I am lost here. Been a Electrician for over 20 years. Why would anyone knowingly submit any plan for permit that is less than 100%. To me that is fraudulent.

I suppose you submit for bid also a half baked set. Leaving a prospective contractor to get screwed.

Could depend on the need to get permits early on for satisfaction of environmental quality issues that may hold up permits for the project- the electrical and other portions of the project may not be all that important just yet but maybe need to be included just to move the process along.

 

[philly]

So in this particular case the 100% design package has all of the elements of the design and for the most part represents the entire project scope. The items that need to be revised and/or added for the IFC include such things as wiring diagram details, schematic details, and the cable schedule items pertaining to these details need to be revised slightly.

So the way I see it, the electrical scope, intent, and details of the project are all included in the 100% package and are enough for a contractor to bid on (not necessary in this case) or submit for permitting, since the plan reviewer would see all the elements of the design in the package. I personally do not think that small details such as wiring diagrams etc.. that need to be finalized would hold up a permit for these are not really crucial to the intent of the project but more the latter half of the execution phase.

Construction is currently ready to begin based off of the 100% package since it has enough detail to run ductbanks, set equipment, pull cables etc... Because construction is now starting there is now a rush to get the permitting in place and thus the reason I ask if a packaged that is no completely finalized can be used for permitting. It may be a few weeks before we are able to button up all the little details in the package and issue the IFC set.

Do others agree with my logic here or am I way off base?

 

[Carultch]

I am lost here. Been a Electrician for over 20 years. Why would anyone knowingly submit any plan for permit that is less than 100%. To me that is fraudulent.

I suppose you submit for bid also a half baked set. Leaving a prospective contractor to get screwed.

Because no matter how hard you try, there is no such thing as a 100% set.

 

[jglavin427]

So in this particular case the 100% design package has all of the elements of the design and for the most part represents the entire project scope. The items that need to be revised and/or added for the IFC include such things as wiring diagram details, schematic details, and the cable schedule items pertaining to these details need to be revised slightly.

So the way I see it, the electrical scope, intent, and details of the project are all included in the 100% package and are enough for a contractor to bid on (not necessary in this case) or submit for permitting, since the plan reviewer would see all the elements of the design in the package. I personally do not think that small details such as wiring diagrams etc.. that need to be finalized would hold up a permit for these are not really crucial to the intent of the project but more the latter half of the execution phase.

Construction is currently ready to begin based off of the 100% package since it has enough detail to run ductbanks, set equipment, pull cables etc... Because construction is now starting there is now a rush to get the permitting in place and thus the reason I ask if a packaged that is no completely finalized can be used for permitting. It may be a few weeks before we are able to button up all the little details in the package and issue the IFC set.

Do others agree with my logic here or am I way off base?

I think some jurisdictions actually publish a list of required elements to an electrical permit set. Or, at least they should, because they always ask for the same things. They most likely have an internal checklist and kick it back immediately if anything is missing. Things like load calculations, fault current calculations, comcheck etc. I agree that some of the extraneous information like installation details and some wiring diagrams that serve to illustrate the preferred installation to the builder but do not necessarily have bearing on the code review performed by the building official can probably wait until later.

 

[gadfly56]

Resubmittal Fees

Resubmittal Fees

I know from my own experience that if you amend an existing permit, the AHJ may/almost certainly will charge you the fees all over again, at least here in NJ. I had a discussion with the construction official on this for one project. He was very sympathetic, but said his hands were basically tied. NJ's uniform construction code treats each submission like a new permit, and for small jobs you wind up paying the minimum fees all over again, just to add one outlet or extra smoke detector.

 

[kwired]

Do some of those fine details even need submitted to the plans reviewer, or whoever fulfills that task?

Say you have a control schematic that shows details of logic of the circuit - how is that so important that it holds up all of construction, some critical hazardous processes maybe an exception but those details are more critical to others beyond general construction or even electrical inspectors IMO. You can wire controls up that pass NEC yet still cause a catastrophic action if safety monitoring and other control devices are not wired in correct logical manner. NEC doesn't tell us where we need a pressure sensor or how high of a temperature is safe for a particular process - that may come from a different industry or trade standard depending on the equipment involved. I don't see why your plans can't show there is control wiring, but shouldn't need to show all details of such control wiring for the purpose of general electrical construction permitting and inspections.

 

[mgookin]

I know from my own experience that if you amend an existing permit, the AHJ may/almost certainly will charge you the fees all over again, at least here in NJ. I had a discussion with the construction official on this for one project. He was very sympathetic, but said his hands were basically tied. NJ's uniform construction code treats each submission like a new permit, and for small jobs you wind up paying the minimum fees all over again, just to add one outlet or extra smoke detector.

Around here it's $40 plus the tax on any increase in valuation.

Do some of those fine details even need submitted to the plans reviewer, or whoever fulfills that task?

Say you have a control schematic that shows details of logic of the circuit - how is that so important that it holds up all of construction, some critical hazardous processes maybe an exception but those details are more critical to others beyond general construction or even electrical inspectors IMO. You can wire controls up that pass NEC yet still cause a catastrophic action if safety monitoring and other control devices are not wired in correct logical manner. NEC doesn't tell us where we need a pressure sensor or how high of a temperature is safe for a particular process - that may come from a different industry or trade standard depending on the equipment involved. I don't see why your plans can't show there is control wiring, but shouldn't need to show all details of such control wiring for the purpose of general electrical construction permitting and inspections.

Agreed. Those specifics are not required to be on the plans in the first place. The owner may want an as-built set which includes that info but submitting that to AHJ with your permit drawings is not required unless some agency claims jurisdiction over any of it.

 

[philly]

Do some of those fine details even need submitted to the plans reviewer, or whoever fulfills that task?

Say you have a control schematic that shows details of logic of the circuit - how is that so important that it holds up all of construction, some critical hazardous processes maybe an exception but those details are more critical to others beyond general construction or even electrical inspectors IMO. You can wire controls up that pass NEC yet still cause a catastrophic action if safety monitoring and other control devices are not wired in correct logical manner. NEC doesn't tell us where we need a pressure sensor or how high of a temperature is safe for a particular process - that may come from a different industry or trade standard depending on the equipment involved. I don't see why your plans can't show there is control wiring, but shouldn't need to show all details of such control wiring for the purpose of general electrical construction permitting and inspections.

This is my fist time through the process which is the reason for my question.

From what you said above it sounds like the drawing set you submit for permitting may be completely different than the final drawings IFC package. In other words the drawing package that you submit for permitting can omit unnecessary drawings such as wiring diagrams etc... and only submit the drawings that are relevant to the permitting process?

So if I provide the requirements for permitting and get them approved then it does not matter how many wiring diagrams, or similar type drawings I add to the final package after permitting. I guess I was under the impression that the permitted drawings were sort of like "Final As-Built" set that was filed with the jurisdiction for the permit. But is sounds like the drawings you need to submit for permitting only need to cover the items required for permitting and not every single element of the design.

So it sounds like the only time you have to re-submit or update permitting is when changes are made to the elements required for permitting. For instance if load calcs changed, or OCPD info changed etc... then the permit would have to be updated? If I add wiring diagrams or updated cable schedule etc... there is no need to update permitting. Do I have this right?

 

[kwired]

This is my fist time through the process which is the reason for my question.

From what you said above it sounds like the drawing set you submit for permitting may be completely different than the final drawings IFC package. In other words the drawing package that you submit for permitting can omit unnecessary drawings such as wiring diagrams etc... and only submit the drawings that are relevant to the permitting process?

So if I provide the requirements for permitting and get them approved then it does not matter how many wiring diagrams, or similar type drawings I add to the final package after permitting. I guess I was under the impression that the permitted drawings were sort of like "Final As-Built" set that was filed with the jurisdiction for the permit. But is sounds like the drawings you need to submit for permitting only need to cover the items required for permitting and not every single element of the design.

So it sounds like the only time you have to re-submit or update permitting is when changes are made to the elements required for permitting. For instance if load calcs changed, or OCPD info changed etc... then the permit would have to be updated? If I add wiring diagrams or updated cable schedule etc... there is no need to update permitting. Do I have this right?

I suggest you ask the AHJ involved - that is who you ultimately need to deal with, and the rules can change from one jurisdiction to the next. None of the work I have ever done has ever needed to submit any plans for review before the AHJ issues a permit, nor have I ever had to show an inspector a set of plans, strictly for electrical anyway, one time when I did some fire alarm work the Fire Marshal did want plans submitted beforehand, but the EI just came and looked at what was done and made sure it was in compliance with NEC for his portion of that work.

 

[gadfly56]

This is my fist time through the process which is the reason for my question.

From what you said above it sounds like the drawing set you submit for permitting may be completely different than the final drawings IFC package. In other words the drawing package that you submit for permitting can omit unnecessary drawings such as wiring diagrams etc... and only submit the drawings that are relevant to the permitting process?

So if I provide the requirements for permitting and get them approved then it does not matter how many wiring diagrams, or similar type drawings I add to the final package after permitting. I guess I was under the impression that the permitted drawings were sort of like "Final As-Built" set that was filed with the jurisdiction for the permit. But is sounds like the drawings you need to submit for permitting only need to cover the items required for permitting and not every single element of the design.

So it sounds like the only time you have to re-submit or update permitting is when changes are made to the elements required for permitting. For instance if load calcs changed, or OCPD info changed etc... then the permit would have to be updated? If I add wiring diagrams or updated cable schedule etc... there is no need to update permitting. Do I have this right?

I can only speculate based on my experience in NJ. I believe you are substantially correct. No one should hold up the permit process because someone decided to change a fixture from manufacturer "A" to "B".

Fees in NJ are basically based on the volume of the construction and device counts. If you're not changing one or the other, you can leave anything else to be dealt with by the as-built drawing, IMO.