Maintainance Personal Doing Electrical

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Fordean

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
What do you do in an event when Maintainance crews that work for the building. Do wiring and lighting Change outs. And Circuits pulling

Reason being is we are licensed and work on the building as well, But when there is a Issue or event, The maintenance guys will point fingers to last electrician or one of them and deny their part of work.

They do nothing proper and unlicensed! Are they permitted to refit complete rooms, Especially in sensitive Hospitable areas?

Just like to hear comments. One thing went wrong which was just a stupid mag lock, And all sudden the Electrician did that finger point, But we had nothing to do with it. I can imagine a larger scale event. And how will that be directed. In some cases we could actually get fired and really not know the cause. If the event happens in which they did the wiring and the information of what happened doesn't get back to us where we can defend ourselves. Just don't think it is fair to be in a position like this.

Maintanance does not have business permit, Or I would guess to believe neither insurance

Any comments.
 
Being on the other side of that situation, I'm grateful to have a better working relationship with all the various contractors working in our buildings. You likely have the upper hand in the long run though, as fewer places do their own maintenance for cost reasons. The ones that remain are because of a proven dedication to the needs of whatever operations occur there. As our own small installation/maintenance group retires, I expect positions will be filled with the contractors working along side us now.
Anyway, I fail to see how you can be held accountable for any work they cannot provide a contract or work order for .
 
Shake your head if you want but fix what they ask.

I used to do work at a family owned laundramat. One of the boys was always dreaming up stuff and trying out his solutions. Drove me nuts. We would clean it up and make it safe. Last I knew he was with NASA and helped decide on experiments destined for the space station.
 
I'd say it is the owner's problem. If you are concerned about what you have done vs them trying to push off their mistakes as your work - you better have good documentation of what is your work, and maybe even details of what that consisted of in case they come make modifications later on. This not only goes for any liability you have but also for the AHJ should they get involved and want to accuse you of wrong doing. Pull proper permits for work you do. When inspector does come along and find problems you did not create - tell them it was not your creation, depending on AHJ rules and what the maintenance people are allowed to do, it may just get the AHJ involved enough to try to stop them from doing things they are not legally qualified to do.
 
You can take it up the chain of command.

Take notes, make documentation and take pictures of faulty wiring and keep a log. Then if something happens you have logs and pictures to show to management and say "I told you so"
 
These days we are blessed with digital photos and video. Memory sticks are cheap. Photo-document all your work and then they can't point the finger at you for their mistakes.
 
% ~ ~ ~ %


Fordean,

Since you are aware of the environment, I too recommend what
some others have already recommended......Document, document,
document, document !...............Moreover, ...document LEGIBLY !
Everything you do in that environment simply must be documented
legibly, and if possible, ...get a Supervisor or Manager to "sign off"
on your work.

After your portion of the work that you actually performed is
completed, be sure to keep EXTREMELY good records at your office,
...electronic and hard copy [ if possible ].........Being able to retrieve
legible copies of Invoices from the past is critical in defending your
position, ...your reputation & your work. :happyyes:



% ~ ~ ~ %
 
Document what? The work the OP did not do, did not bill for and did not get paid for?

It is a non-issue in any commercial building there will be others doing work.
 
iwire said:
Document what? The work the OP did not do, did not bill for and did not get paid for?

It is a non-issue in any commercial building there will be others doing work.
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Bob I think they are suggesting that the OP keep good documentation of the work that he or his company actually does and make sure that he is doing legal and code compliant work.

I had a job ( service call) where all I did was replace a bad photo cell. Five years later the owner is complaining about crappy fixture install (exterior). When I pull up the invoice for the job it clearly shows what I was called for, what the problem was and what action was taken to repair the problem. Someone did a poor job of installing those fixtures but all I did was replace a photo cell, never had a reason to even touch those fixtures. When I showed a copy of the invoice to the owner he was surprised that we keep paperwork that long, I told him I have paperwork going back over 20 years.

In this day in age information storage is cheap and easy and can clear up problems when people try to rely on memory. Documentation, even in a court of law, is much more acceptable than memory. We humans really do not have good memory storage or not reliable. That's why everyone points the finger at someone else.
 
growler said:
Bob I think they are suggesting that the OP keep good documentation of the work that he or his company actually does
Click to expand...

In most cases the billing would do that right?

I assume no one sends a bill that just says 'We did some electric stuff, send money'.

and make sure that he is doing legal and code compliant work.
Click to expand...

Of course.

When I pull up the invoice for the job it clearly shows what I was called for, what the problem was and what action was taken to repair the problem.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point, no further documentation than the billing is needed. :)
 
Not sure where you are located but here in MA if you do electrical work you need to pull a permit. List everything on the permit you are going to do and have it inspected. This way here you are covered for your work and not work done by others.

What I have done in the past is walk through with an inspector and point out the work I have done and also point out the work (code violations) that others have done. Sometimes the other contractors are still on the job and the work gets corrected. I have been on walk through's where other contractors have not pulled a permit and I have no trouble turning them in by giving the inspector names and numbers.
 
growler said:
Bob I think they are suggesting that the OP keep good documentation of the work that he or his company actually does and make sure that he is doing legal and code compliant work.
Click to expand...

iwire said:
In most cases the billing would do that right?

I assume no one sends a bill that just says 'We did some electric stuff, send money'.
Click to expand...



I will admit that I have never seen an invoice that just says " We did some electric stuff, send money" but I have seen some that were just about as ambiguous. There are those that try to deny responsibility even for their own work ( with thinking that the less said the better).
 
iwire said:
In most cases the billing would do that right?

I assume no one sends a bill that just says 'We did some electric stuff, send money'.



Of course.



Exactly my point, no further documentation than the billing is needed. :)
Click to expand...

growler said:
I will admit that I have never seen an invoice that just says " We did some electric stuff, send money" but I have seen some that were just about as ambiguous. There are those that try to deny responsibility even for their own work ( with thinking that the less said the better).
Click to expand...

An invoice may just contain a list of items sold - no description of what was done.

A work order (if used) will have more details of what is done, but may not have every detail - especially stating whether or not something was done to code, just a general description of the task performed. Permits and inspection results are also helpful but can also have errors or omissions from what actually was done. On a new building everything is covered unless specifically on record someplace that someone else was responsible for certain portions of the project, but for additions or maintenance and repairs - a lot of things can get left off the paperwork whether intentional or not leaving it not so clear who actually is responsible for what.
 
Think about the recent thread where someone replaced a three-way switch with a regular SPST on/off switch and connected one of the three wires to the switch yoke's ground screw. I think we can all agree that an invoice for that work would not accurately reflect the work that was (improperly) performed. If the invoice included an itemization for materials, at best there would be a clue to the error if they accurately listed the type of switch used in the repair, but even that's not a given (the invoice might just list "light switch" or "parts").

I typically like to take photos before and after I do any work. As much for my benefit (to remember later exactly what I did), but also to document my work.
 
Jon456 said:
Think about the recent thread where someone replaced a three-way switch with a regular SPST on/off switch and connected one of the three wires to the switch yoke's ground screw. I think we can all agree that an invoice for that work would not accurately reflect the work that was (improperly) performed.
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Why would I have to document work I did not do?:huh:

My invoice will indicate the work I do.

To each their own but in my world there is not enough paper to document all the work others do in the same buildings I work in.
 
growler said:
I will admit that I have never seen an invoice that just says " We did some electric stuff, send money" but I have seen some that were just about as ambiguous. There are those that try to deny responsibility even for their own work ( with thinking that the less said the better).
Click to expand...

Sure but your invoice (the guy doing good work) does show what you did.

I would like to see an example of an EC being held accountable for electrical work they did not do, did not bill for etc.

Maybe it happens but in 30+ years I have not seen it happen around here.
 
iwire said:
Why would I have to document work I did not do?:huh:

My invoice will indicate the work I do.

To each their own but in my world there is not enough paper to document all the work others do in the same buildings I work in.
Click to expand...
My point was, if I have records of the work I perform, then if someone else later does some work after me, I can show what I did and what I did not do. That way it's not a he-said/she-said situation where somebody is blaming me for landing a hot wire on a ground terminal.

In the OP's situation, there appears to be some dispute as to who was responsible for doing improper work. If the OP has accurate documentation of all his work (including photos), then clearly he can't be blamed for doing improper work by others.
 
There are often times when we find some thing above a cieling or other places that are not compliant. I have found it valuable to state it on my invoice along with a price to fix it. This often makes an additional sale, and if it doesnt, then I have it documented that we brought it up and it was turned down. A good example of this was just on a residential service call, we pointed out that the sump pump was sharing a circuit with a freezer and lighting. The customer gave the usual " been that way for years, its ok". Well, about two years later the circuit tripped and the sump overflowed. Customer asked me why we didn't tell them this was the case? I certainly didn't remember and thought I owed an apology, then the secretary looked up the paperwork and it was very well stated as well as priced out the solution. When I showed this to the customer, they remembered also and felt just a little ashamed. Built credibility on our end . It is so easy to just verbally notify them, but no one remembers that later. I am also surprised how often I will get a call maybe a year later and the customer has decided to go ahead with the repair we suggested.
 
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