Shock hazard - What would you do to correct it ?

[goldstar]

Ground rods will do nothing to correct the issue.
Is the fence hot or the panel enclosure hot?

I wasn't able to correct the issue. I was just trying to make the installation safer until it can be corrected. The panel enclosure was hot, the fence was grounded via the metal posts embedded in concrete.

 

[kwired]

What I was trying to accomplish was to make the installation safer by creating an equi-potential bonding grid. The cyclone fence posts were embedded in concrete. I drove the 2 ground rods and bonded them to both the fence posts and the breaker enclosure.
I understand that and I have some new information regarding this installation. The lighting at this facility was installed in two separate phases and all were aerial runs. The basketball court area was installed first and the volleyball area second (years apart BTW). In addition there was a 120/240 volt service, telephone and CATV installed to the original clubhouse. The clubhouse was remodeled about 15 years ago and those original services, while disconnected in the street were never disconnected on the property or from the clubhouse. About one month ago a tree fell in the basketball area and pulled the abandoned 120/240 volt triplex off the club house and utility pole along with the EGC portion of the service to the lights and the abandoned telephone and CATV wiring. Wiring to the basketball area is a 120/208v single phase circuit and was run with quad-plex. I climbed up on the roof to the clubhouse and noticed that the EGC for that circuit was disconnected so I bugged that together. Looking up to the light pole in the basketball area I can now see that the EGC is disconnected from that as well but will need a lift to get up there. The neutral and both phases remained in tact.

Now for the volleyball area. Someone (in their infinite wisdom) decided to extend the light circuit from the basketball area to the volleyball area by using tri-plex instead of quad-plex. They used the EGC or strain relief wire as a neutral. Replacing that run with quad-plex will be a much easier fix than running a new circuit to the clubhouse. I plan to send a proposal to the association advising them of the situation but for now I believe I made the situation at the volleyball area safer than what it was by installing the rods and bonding the fence. There's no question that the triplex to that area has to be replaced.

Problem here is you the action you took made the shocking incidents go away and everything still operates - the association will likely feel that it is now fixed and you are wanting to throw more money at it for reasons they don't understand. Better action would have been to disconnect it and deem it unsafe until properly fixed.

 

[ptonsparky]

You have reduced the potential between fence and enclosure by bonding them together, but now you have added the fence and extended the circuit along its entire path.

 

[jerryalan]

Better action would have been to disconnect it and deem it unsafe until properly fixed.

the only acceptable action is to disconnect or properly repair . . .

 

[GoldDigger]

When you drive two ground rods and bonded them to both panel and fence all you really did was bond the fence to the panel. The ground rods served no real purpose.
BTW, the fence posts in concrete probably already formed a much better earth connection than your ground rods.
Finally, I cannot stress too much that the core problem is neither the triplex nor the open EGCs (unless they are the ones bring used as the neutral). There is a substantial current fault to supposedly grounded metal somewhere in the system.
That will be cheap to fix once you find it. A clamp on ammeter should let you zero in on the fault.

 

[goldstar]

You have reduced the potential between fence and enclosure by bonding them together, but now you have added the fence and extended the circuit along its entire path.

I can't begin to tell you how correct you and everyone else was on this matter. I should have taken the advice that was offered. While I believed that I minimized the problem I did so only for ME, a guy with shoes on !!! When they came to play volleyball, barefoot in the sand a few players touched the fence and got a buzz. I've since shut down the power and will be making the repair this week before another volley ball game. As far as I can figure the disconnected EGC (and neutral in this case) is missing and the voltage is taking any path possible to return. It looks like whomever did this work originally used the same triplex inside the conduit and that bare wire is touching the metal threaded hub at the top of the breaker panel on the utility pole.

Now, when I make the repair and install the correct wiring I'm thinking I should keep the ground rods in place and bond them to the panel. Should I also bond the fence as well? This area is about 50' from the shore of the lake. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I feel embarrassed that I made this rookie mistake but I'm thankful no one was injured. :slaphead::slaphead:

 

[jumper]

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Yes, I think it is commendable that you are helping out and fixing a bad situation.:thumbsup:

 

[jaggedben]

... Now, when I make the repair and install the correct wiring I'm thinking I should keep the ground rods in place and bond them to the panel. Should I also bond the fence as well? This area is about 50' from the shore of the lake. Any thoughts would be appreciated. ...

I would bond them to the panel. Whatever small good they do, it's not worth pulling them out.

I don't think I would bond them to the fence.

I do think you should make sure that fence is not energized by something else. Still not clear where that voltage is coming from. I would test the voltage from the fence to some other solidly grounded metal elsewhere to check that out.

 

[goldstar]

Good advice but I probably won't check that until we replace the triplex and see if it still exists.

 

[Tony S]

Now, when I make the repair and install the correct wiring I'm thinking I should keep the ground rods in place and bond them to the panel. Should I also bond the fence as well? This area is about 50' from the shore of the lake. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Standard UK practice would be to bond the metal fence to the ECG. It then forms an equipotential zone. But that is UK practice.

From reading through the thread it would seem you’ve been dropped in the mire through no fault of your own.
Like it or not the community is going to have to pay if they want the lights working safely, either that or no lights at all. Now aware of the situation they are duty bound to have the remedial work done or face the consequences.

Good luck with the job. You may find you pick more work up through the community.

 

[goldstar]

Thanks. The sad part is that even though I'll be getting paid for the job I'll be paying for it through my dues.:rant::rant:

 

[goldstar]

Just thought I'd post an update on this project. We corrected the problem on wednesday. We started at the first light pole where the lighting circuit starts. It was difficult to see without the use of a bucket truck but what actually happened was the neutral was completely severed. The 400 watt metal halide lights operated on 208 volts and needed no neutral so they had worked fine during all this. On the poles where we had the shock hazard problem the light fixtures were 120 volt HPS. Whomever wired to this light pole originally tied the ground and neutral together and landed them on the floating neutral bar. The unfortunate part was that they used the bonding screw and bonded the floating neutral bar to the enclosure. I also mentioned that they used triplex instead of quad-plex from the original point of attachment to the volleyball area light pole. That was only partially correct. They actually had a piece of # 12 THNN wrapped around the triplex. Instead of using the THHN as the neutral they spliced the messenger and the THHN together and brought it into the breaker panel on that pole.

Long story - short, all splices were re-made, the neutral bar is now floating and the problem was corrected. I left the 2 ground rods in place but removed the bonding to the fence.

Thank you all for your advice and I'm truly sorry I didn't follow it from the start.

 

[ptonsparky]

What are you using for the EG?
Are you still using the triplex?
Does it have OC protection at the source?

 

[david]

We started at the first light pole where the lighting circuit starts. It was difficult to see without the use of a bucket truck but what actually happened was the neutral was completely severed.

Whomever wired to this light pole originally tied the ground and neutral together and landed them on the floating neutral bar. The unfortunate part was that they used the bonding screw and bonded the floating neutral bar to the enclosure. I also mentioned that they used triplex instead of quad-plex from the original point of attachment to the volleyball area light polet………………..he breaker panel on that pole. Long story - short, all splices were re-made, the neutral bar is now floating and the problem was corrected. I left the 2 ground rods in place but removed the bonding to the fence. Thank you all for your advice and I'm truly sorry I didn't follow it from the start.

This sounds like one structures distribution was feeding a second structure. Keep in mind when you ran a feeder in the past from one structure to a second structure an equipment ground was not required to be run with the feeder in past era’s .

Second bonding of the neutral to the structures grounding electrode systems was required.
I would speculate the THHN that you discovered was green and was most likely some one trying to extend an equipment ground to some piece of equipment.
Seems to me what happened is you lost a neutral from one structure to another. I think we need to back up a little and pause before a determination is made that this was non- code compliant when installed

A separate equipment ground to a secondary structure is the norm today.
Am not sure if the feeder between the two structures originated in the primary building service distribution or a sub feed panel off of the primary buildings service distribution
One last comment if you read federal standard s on outdoor parks and outdoor recreational facilities you will discover that all metal fencing must be bonded to a ground rod and each fence opening must be bonded across that opening .

Edit: if your not receiving any type of federal funding you might not fall under federal quidlines

 

[Tony S]

My one criticism is as David points out, removing the bond to the fence. The fence will create an equipotential zone.

 

[goldstar]

What are you using for the EG?
Are you still using the triplex?
Does it have OC protection at the source?

It does have OC protection at the source. Both insulated conductors of the triplex are hot and the EGC (messinger cable) to the second light pole was spliced to the neutral at the first light pole. I had to use that as the neutral at the light pole where 120/240 is being utilized. It was run down the pole in PVC and was too short to get extended to the EG bar that I installed in the breaker panel. So, I inserted a piece of NM seal-tight over the bare messinger up through the threaded hub so it wouldn't ground to the metal enclosure and used the #12 THHN that was wrapped around the triplex as the EGC. I know it seems like a Rube Goldberg but that's what I had t work with.

 

[goldstar]

This sounds like one structures distribution was feeding a second structure. Keep in mind when you ran a feeder in the past from one structure to a second structure an equipment ground was not required to be run with the feeder in past era’s .

I'm not sure how old this installation is but I've lived in this lake community since 1976 and as far as I can remember there was always lights on the basketball court area. When they extended the lighting to the volleyball area and who did it is a mystery.

Second bonding of the neutral to the structures grounding electrode systems was required.
I would speculate the THHN that you discovered was green and was most likely some one trying to extend an equipment ground to some piece of equipment.
Seems to me what happened is you lost a neutral from one structure to another. I think we need to back up a little and pause before a determination is made that this was non- code compliant when installed

The neutral was severed at the first light pole so there was no neutral at the volleyball light pole. I don't remember when it was compliant to bond the EGC and neutral together in a sub-panel. If it was compliant when it was installed then we changed it this week to current standards.

A separate equipment ground to a secondary structure is the norm today.
Am not sure if the feeder between the two structures originated in the primary building service distribution or a sub feed panel off of the primary buildings service distribution

Being fed from a main distribution panel

One last comment if you read federal standard s on outdoor parks and outdoor recreational facilities you will discover that all metal fencing must be bonded to a ground rod and each fence opening must be bonded across that opening .

Edit: if your not receiving any type of federal funding you might not fall under federal quidlines

No federal funding involved.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Shoot, I never got to answer and even had the right one. I figured that a wire had to be broken or cut somewhere. Oh and I don't remember who mentioned it, but there are no requirements (other than in 680) that would require you to bond a chain link fence.

 

[kwired]

This sounds like one structures distribution was feeding a second structure. Keep in mind when you ran a feeder in the past from one structure to a second structure an equipment ground was not required to be run with the feeder in past era’s .

Second bonding of the neutral to the structures grounding electrode systems was required.
I would speculate the THHN that you discovered was green and was most likely some one trying to extend an equipment ground to some piece of equipment.
Seems to me what happened is you lost a neutral from one structure to another. I think we need to back up a little and pause before a determination is made that this was non- code compliant when installed

A separate equipment ground to a secondary structure is the norm today.
Am not sure if the feeder between the two structures originated in the primary building service distribution or a sub feed panel off of the primary buildings service distribution
One last comment if you read federal standard s on outdoor parks and outdoor recreational facilities you will discover that all metal fencing must be bonded to a ground rod and each fence opening must be bonded across that opening .

Edit: if your not receiving any type of federal funding you might not fall under federal quidlines

Yes before 2005NEC (correct me if that is wrong, may have been 2008) you didn't have to run a grounded and equipment grounding conductor with the feeder to separate structures.

But if you were running a circuit to a series of lighting poles that also meant you needed a disconnecting means (that was suitable for use as service equipment), and a grounding electrode system at each pole (separate structure). If you were running a branch circuit instead of a feeder to this string of poles then you still needed separate grounded and equipment grounding conductors. Also keep in mind a branch circuit supplying lighting has a limitation of 50 amps, so if the feeder is more then that you still need branch circuit protection placed where you can limit the branch to 50 amps or less.

 

[david]

I was called to inspect and/or correct a shock hazard problem for outdoor lighting at the lake community facility where I live. There is a 4-circuit outdoor breaker panel mounted on a utility pole adjacent to a volleyball court. [*]The facility is fed by a 120/208V, 3 phase power to the club house
[*]The initial lighting circuit covering the basketball courts on the opposite side of the play area was 208 volts
[*]Wiring to that light circuit was run with triplex (seemed OK since no neutral was required at the time that was installed))
[*]Somewhere along the line (I guess when they created the volleyball area) someone decided to install 120 volt lighting and tapped off the 208 volt power line to the basketball courts. Now we're using the ground wire as a neutral I ran a temporary ground wire from the breaker panel to the fence post and that seemed to correct the shock hazard problem for now The power to the initial lighting scheme is 208V/1-phase. They didn't bring 3-phase out to the poles. I drove the 2 ground rods and bonded them to both the fence posts and the breaker enclosure. The lighting at this facility was installed in two separate phases and all were aerial runs. In addition there was a 120/240 volt service, telephone and CATV installed to the original clubhouse. remodeled about 15 years ago those original services, while disconnected in the street were never disconnected on the property or from the clubhouse and those original services, a tree fell in the basketball area and pulled the abandoned 120/240 volt triplex off the club house and utility pole along with the EGC portion of the service to the lights and the abandoned telephone and CATV wiring. Wiring to the basketball area is a 120/208v single phase circuit and was run with quad-plex. I climbed up on the roof to the clubhouse and noticed that the EGC for that circuit was disconnected so I bugged that together. Looking up to the light pole in the basketball area I can now see that the EGC is disconnected from that as well The neutral and both phases remained in tact. Someone (in their infinite wisdom) decided to extend the light circuit from the basketball area to the volleyball area by using tri-plex They used the EGC or strain relief wire as a neutral. When they came to play volleyball, barefoot in the sand a few players touched the fence and got a buzz. Just thought I'd post an update on this project.

“there was a 120/240 volt service, telephone and CATV installed to the original clubhouse. Remodeled”
“about 15 years ago those original services, while disconnected in the street were never disconnected on the property or from the clubhouse”

“The facility is fed by a 120/208V, 3 phase power to the club house”

“There is a 4-circuit outdoor breaker panel mounted on a utility pole adjacent to a volleyball court.”

“a tree fell in the basketball area and pulled the abandoned 120/240 volt triplex off the club house and utility pole along with the EGC portion of the service to the lights and the abandoned telephone and CATV wiring”

“I was called to inspect and/or correct a shock hazard problem for outdoor lighting at the lake community facility where I live.”

“I ran a temporary ground wire from the breaker panel to the fence post and that seemed to correct the shock hazard problem for now”

“What I was trying to accomplish was to make the installation safer by creating an equal-potential bonding grid”.

“I climbed up on the roof to the clubhouse and noticed that the EGC for that circuit was disconnected so I bugged that together. Looking up to the light pole in the basketball area I can now see that the EGC is disconnected from that as well but will need a lift to get up there. The neutral and both phases remained in tact.”

“It was difficult to see without the use of a bucket truck but what actually happened was the neutral was completely severed.”

“When they came to play volleyball, barefoot in the sand a few players touched the fence and got a buzz. Just thought I'd post an update on this project.”

You had a neutral and possibly an equipment ground originating at the club house from a 120/208 circuit feeding both the basket ball court then on to the volley ball court.

You discovered through your repairs at some point in those 15 years since the 208 3 phase service was added to the club house that the neutral was severed for the 120/208 circuit to the basket ball circuit, or perhaps it was never connected to begin with.

You had a 120/240 volt service originating from the utility pole (owners property) at the volley ball court.

The 120/240 volt service line one and line two where disconnected from the utility pole and the club house at the time the 208 3 phase service took its place 15 years ago during that remodel.

The messenger neutral from the 120/240 volt service was still intact until the tree came down and you where called to investigate a shock hazard.