Maintainance Personal Doing Electrical

[kwired]

My point was, if I have records of the work I perform, then if someone else later does some work after me, I can show what I did and what I did not do. That way it's not a he-said/she-said situation where somebody is blaming me for landing a hot wire on a ground terminal.

In the OP's situation, there appears to be some dispute as to who was responsible for doing improper work. If the OP has accurate documentation of all his work (including photos), then clearly he can't be blamed for doing improper work by others.

But do you take photo of every device you connect or other similar finer details that would result in so much documentation that it possibly becomes a bigger job to organize the documentation then the installs being done?
Some occasional notes on items that peak your interest when you encounter them is one thing, documenting every single detail is another.

I do like this idea or something similar:

There are often times when we find some thing above a cieling or other places that are not compliant. I have found it valuable to state it on my invoice along with a price to fix it. This often makes an additional sale, and if it doesnt, then I have it documented that we brought it up and it was turned down. A good example of this was just on a residential service call, we pointed out that the sump pump was sharing a circuit with a freezer and lighting. The customer gave the usual " been that way for years, its ok". Well, about two years later the circuit tripped and the sump overflowed. Customer asked me why we didn't tell them this was the case? I certainly didn't remember and thought I owed an apology, then the secretary looked up the paperwork and it was very well stated as well as priced out the solution. When I showed this to the customer, they remembered also and felt just a little ashamed. Built credibility on our end . It is so easy to just verbally notify them, but no one remembers that later. I am also surprised how often I will get a call maybe a year later and the customer has decided to go ahead with the repair we suggested.

 

[electricianexpress]

No, I think I am with you. I have trouble feeling productive when I am just making excessive paperwork. I have gotten to where I will take a few pictures when I think I may need to remember something. I started using an app called evernote. It is basically a digital file cabinet that I can search customer information and edit information, including pictures on site.

 

[Fordean]

My view is it is none of your business.

But that said each area is different in what they allow.

I know its not my business. But here is the Reason it actual. Is.


When something went wrong in the building. Which It did small issue, But just the same. Do you think they fetch up to being the ones to do it. No they didn't they try to blame the contractors that occasionally work in building to protect their own ass.

That is my concern with unlicensed maintainanced personal.

 

[Fordean]

Bob I think they are suggesting that the OP keep good documentation of the work that he or his company actually does and make sure that he is doing legal and code compliant work.

I had a job ( service call) where all I did was replace a bad photo cell. Five years later the owner is complaining about crappy fixture install (exterior). When I pull up the invoice for the job it clearly shows what I was called for, what the problem was and what action was taken to repair the problem. Someone did a poor job of installing those fixtures but all I did was replace a photo cell, never had a reason to even touch those fixtures. When I showed a copy of the invoice to the owner he was surprised that we keep paperwork that long, I told him I have paperwork going back over 20 years.

In this day in age information storage is cheap and easy and can clear up problems when people try to rely on memory. Documentation, even in a court of law, is much more acceptable than memory. We humans really do not have good memory storage or not reliable. That's why everyone points the finger at someone else.

I agree with paperwork trails and you can show the owner that. But the long run . The finger pointing. He tends to believe his people first. So he would not feel he hires incompetent type.

 

[petersonra]

I know its not my business. But here is the Reason it actual. Is.


When something went wrong in the building. Which It did small issue, But just the same. Do you think they fetch up to being the ones to do it. No they didn't they try to blame the contractors that occasionally work in building to protect their own ass.

That is my concern with unlicensed maintainanced personal.

Just what license do you think maint personnel should have?

The nature of their work often requires that they be jack of all trades (and maybe master of none).

A lot of electrical work does not require a great deal of skill and experience to complete if the owner is willing to accept a potentially lower quality of workmanship. That is a decision for the owner to make IMO.

I have seen enough sloppy work by electrical contractors over the years that I do not believe that the mere holding of a license means all that much.

It appears to me that you are another of the many outside contractors who want to use the licensing system to help you acquire more business.

 

[peter d]

Personally, I couldn't care less what other people do. As mentioned, there could be literally dozens of other people doing electrical work in the same building or campus. Worry about your work and put your blinders on.

 

[JFletcher]

I used to do hotel maintenance, including minor electrical. What is 'minor' to me? Replacing blown lights, bad receptacles, switches, coverplates, coax and telephone terminations and wallplates, resetting GFCIs and breakers, replacing luminares. We did not run new circuits, or install any new equipment. Even at that, I saw an absolute ton of really bad work: bad/missing/improperly made up grounds, incompatible wiring methods (like using MC to a plastic Carlon box for NM), improper/missing bonding, hidden/unboxed splices, luminares supported solely by the grid, etc etc. I kinda hated electrical back then, because invariably we'd be asked 'why is xxx taking so long?'. "Trying to get all the worms back in the can" is not a good answer." I knew a little bit about code back then...

There are a ton of things that maint personnel doing electrical may not realize, like needing to bond to the frame of metal PTAC sub-bases, switching neutrals is no good, pretwisting wires so that the wirenut isnt holding everything together, correct polarity, stripping back wires far enough/not too far, the list goes on.

I dont know where I'm going with this other than to say some maint guys are clueless/careless (as long as it works, its right mentality), and some are much much better. Most I worked with were scared of electrical.

There are a few places we do work for now where maintenance is basically only allowed to change bulbs and replace device covers.

 

[kwired]

I used to do hotel maintenance, including minor electrical. What is 'minor' to me? Replacing blown lights, bad receptacles, switches, coverplates, coax and telephone terminations and wallplates, resetting GFCIs and breakers, replacing luminares. We did not run new circuits, or install any new equipment. Even at that, I saw an absolute ton of really bad work: bad/missing/improperly made up grounds, incompatible wiring methods (like using MC to a plastic Carlon box for NM), improper/missing bonding, hidden/unboxed splices, luminares supported solely by the grid, etc etc. I kinda hated electrical back then, because invariably we'd be asked 'why is xxx taking so long?'. "Trying to get all the worms back in the can" is not a good answer." I knew a little bit about code back then...

There are a ton of things that maint personnel doing electrical may not realize, like needing to bond to the frame of metal PTAC sub-bases, switching neutrals is no good, pretwisting wires so that the wirenut isnt holding everything together, correct polarity, stripping back wires far enough/not too far, the list goes on.

I dont know where I'm going with this other than to say some maint guys are clueless/careless (as long as it works, its right mentality), and some are much much better. Most I worked with were scared of electrical.

There are a few places we do work for now where maintenance is basically only allowed to change bulbs and replace device covers.

But your maintenance man in more of an industrial environment is also a plumber, welder, carpenter, machinist, and often do installs and not just repairs. Maybe a major addition is contracted but a change out or smaller additions is often done "in house".

 

[Tony S]

I qualified as an electrician. The company I served my time with believed you can’t be a good electrician unless you know how things work so my first year was in the fitting/machine/welding shops.

Skills I learnt there have stayed with me. As shift engineering supervisor at several companies, I would have a multi trade team. No saying “its non electrical I’m out of here”.

Does that make me the companies “handyman”?

 

[K8MHZ]

I did electrical work as a maint. tech in a die cast foundry. Every day. On live 480.

It was all 'illegal' which I did not know at the time. When I joined the IBEW and tried to get my hours at the foundry counted toward my state licensing requirements, the state said no.

That cost me 1100 hours and it got the company I did the work for in a lot of hot water.

I had to un-learn a lot of stuff, especially as far as safety was concerned. Even with Michigan's 'strict' electrical laws, what goes on inside factories here is far from being legal. If maint. techs in Michigan can get away with doing unlicensed work in factories, I would say it could happen just about anywhere.

 

[Tony S]

I would say it could happen just about anywhere.

Unfortunately that is all too true throughout the world.The qualified electrician only gets involved when:
a/ it doesn’t work
b/ it went bang
c/ someone gets hurt
d/ insert various other reasons here

I was recently involved in an accident investigation on behalf of the company under scrutiny. On finding the facts I walked, I’m not covering up for incompetence.

 

[JFletcher]

But your maintenance man in more of an industrial environment is also a plumber, welder, carpenter, machinist, and often do installs and not just repairs. Maybe a major addition is contracted but a change out or smaller additions is often done "in house".

The only industrial experience I have is at larger (3-30MGD) waste water plants (in operations). Maintenance did maintenance things, and electricians did electrical. Yes, maintenance did everything you listed (and more) but electrical was a completely separate dept. They often worked together tho. Electricians didnt work on IT stuff, there was another department for instrumentation (PLCs, Westinghouse DCS, etc).

I shudder to think about hack or substandard electrical work in, say, a digester building, or to a 4160V aeration blower.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

I am both a chief engineer and a licensed electrician... just had to straighten out a situation with a couple of lighting circuits that the GC's contractor caused... nothing personal guys.

 

[Fordean]

Just what license do you think maint personnel should have?

The nature of their work often requires that they be jack of all trades (and maybe master of none).

A lot of electrical work does not require a great deal of skill and experience to complete if the owner is willing to accept a potentially lower quality of workmanship. That is a decision for the owner to make IMO.

I have seen enough sloppy work by electrical contractors over the years that I do not believe that the mere holding of a license means all that much.

It appears to me that you are another of the many outside contractors who want to use the licensing system to help you acquire more business.

I did get shocked once from this type of work. I don't know how to answer a question. But I you are a licensed personal. I am sure you are more than 50 percent qualified then a jack of all trades. In my state. It is Law that no work be performed over 30 Volts. Unless by a licensed electrician. A jack of all trades. Does not bear the cover of this prot
(It appears to me that you are another of the many outside contractors who want to use the licensing system to help you acquire more business.ection. I know a lot here on this site.. I don't see a lot of ridiculous wiring from a licensed electrician as much as I do a jack of all trades. Just protecting my interest and the public.) This is a very unnatural statement for a licensed electrician.

 

[petersonra]

If state law actually prohibits unlicensed work of whatever type you think is going on, feel free to rat out the people who are engaged in illegal work. Maybe you can get them all fired and the work they were doing will fall your way.

 

[Fordean]

I don't say, Nothing Just here . ( I am not a phone caller. To much karma to worry about)

But I will give you a reason why I get concern.

I was working in a nursing home. This place was rampant in bad maintenance work. They took apart systems and altered it to a point of which I considered danagerous.

Example: The generator that serves the entire buildings. Special needs circuits. They called me in because things weren't working ( Me arriving did not no what was going on, Did not even consider the EM ckts). But once I traced back to (1) issue,

They literally took apart the Generators circuits to try to patch in something. These circuits for Generator never would worked when needed. I repaired it back to normal. ( I remember it was a lot serious when I really got to take it apart)

There 800 old people in this building and if a fire does happened. They aint getting them out. So I told them about the bushes outside. Not to remove them Because they be throwing them out the window in case of a fire.

I have much respect for maintenance that are qualified to do electric. But none has our 25 yrs of guidance.

Can you close this post Bob. TY

 

[Fordean]

Sure but your invoice (the guy doing good work) does show what you did.

I would like to see an example of an EC being held accountable for electrical work they did not do, did not bill for etc.

Maybe it happens but in 30+ years I have not seen it happen around here.

I agree invoice written are good. Also I guess in future I will put the bad work I seen in area. Just so owner is aware and that is also on ticket. Good point.