6 units townhouses, can i just Bond neutral in one point at main splice box gutter

[1964element]

But is it copper

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[electrofelon]

But is it copper

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Im Not sure why this water supply issue came up. I don't see how it is relevant.

 

[GoldDigger]

Im Not sure why this water supply issue came up. I don't see how it is relevant.

Because of the requirement to use a water pipe ground electrode if one is available. And to bond a metallic water pipe even if it does not qualify as an electrode.
If each unit has a meter, each one may have a dielectric union. That means each one has to be separately bonded.

 

[tico17]

Because of the requirement to use a water pipe ground electrode if one is available. And to bond a metallic water pipe even if it does not qualify as an electrode.
If each unit has a meter, each one may have a dielectric union. That means each one has to be separately bonded.

it is plastic, but it has a brass and copper pipe at the backflow in the exterior, they are putting a water pipe underneath every meter

 

[tico17]

Is there a breaker for each unit feeder in the garage or just a main breaker? Not really sure what they were thinking. Even regardless of NEC issues, i have a hard time believing the utility would accept such an arrangement.

I agree with the previous poster about just putting a main and 7 cold sequenced meters in the garage and taking out or blanking off the existing meters. Another option may be to use 230.40 ex 2, but that would be contingent on the AHJ seeing the units as separate occupancies and you have 230.3 to deal with so you would need to get those conductors outside which i assume involves cutting some concrete....

i was reading code book 230.40, Exception No. 3: A single-family dwelling unit with a separate structure, such as a garage, can have one set of service entrance conductors run to each structure from a single service drop or lateral.

i guess i can put a splice box gutter in the electrical room to splice all units services and house panel together and install a meter in each unit?

 

[curt swartz]

How are the service conductors getting from the tap box to each unit?

I agree with the suggestion of installing a meter stack or switchboard in the electrical room and running feeders to each unit.

 

[electrofelon]

i was reading code book 230.40, Exception No. 3: A single-family dwelling unit with a separate structure, such as a garage, can have one set of service entrance conductors run to each structure from a single service drop or lateral.

i guess i can put a splice box gutter in the electrical room to splice all units services and house panel together and install a meter in each unit?

Are this complex all one building? Physically or legally? It doesnt sound like you meet the requirements of the exception, plus you still have 230.3 which you seem to be dead set on sweeping under the rug :happyno:

 

[tico17]

Are this complex all one building? Physically or legally? It doesnt sound like you meet the requirements of the exception, plus you still have 230.3 which you seem to be dead set on sweeping under the rug :happyno:

Each unit has its own address, and they are divided by a block wall so I will think they are considered individual units

 

[Smart $]

Each unit has its own address, and they are divided by a block wall so I will think they are considered individual units

Some of the signs indicate that... but others say otherwise. You cannot be guessing at this. You need know for certain, for the legal aspects involved.

 

[tico17]

I feel as is OP is seeking our blessing for what he wants to do versus taking the best advice he's has been given, which is to involve the local utility and inspector. Their opinion matters far more than ours...

Well thank you for your honest answer, I have paid attention to every answer I received and has learned and understood what was better, but in this case we can group them or put a main that's why I asked a different question if I can splice all services at the electric room without bonding service there, I was going to bond each unit individually, and was not looking for your blessing just someone with a past experience on a job like this

 

[Smart $]

Well thank you for your honest answer, I have paid attention to every answer I received and has learned and understood what was better, but in this case we can group them or put a main that's why I asked a different question if I can splice all services at the electric room without bonding service there, I was going to bond each unit individually, and was not looking for your blessing just someone with a past experience on a job like this

You are required to bond grounded to grounding wherever the service disconnecting means is located. And GEC(s) connect to the grounded conductor at or ahead of the service disconnecting means.

Splices of or taps to are permitted for service conductors... but there are no service conductors after a service disconnecting means. So if you want to tap the service at the electric room and run service entrance conductors to each unit, you cannot have a service disconnecting before each unit... which means none in the electric room.

Ultimately, IMO, you are up against...

230.3 One Building or Other Structure Not to Be Supplied
Through Another. Service conductors supplying a
building or other structure shall not pass through the interior
of another building or other structure.

 

[tico17]

You are required to bond grounded to grounding wherever the service disconnecting means is located. And GEC(s) connect to the grounded conductor at or ahead of the service disconnecting means.

Splices of or taps to are permitted for service conductors... but there are no service conductors after a service disconnecting means. So if you want to tap the service at the electric room and run service entrance conductors to each unit, you cannot have a service disconnecting before each unit... which means none in the electric room.

Ultimately, IMO, you are up against...

thank you, so in my case my option is to do splice all services at electric room and install meter outside of units and bond every unit either at meter or at my panel which has a main breaker

 

[electrofelon]

thank you, so in my case my option is to do splice all services at electric room and install meter outside of units and bond every unit either at meter or at my panel which has a main breaker

Perhaps you can clarify, and explain in detail what you mean by "splice all services at the electrical room"

 

[Smart $]

thank you, so in my case my option is to do splice all services at electric room and install meter outside of units and bond every unit either at meter or at my panel which has a main breaker

Perhaps you can clarify, and explain in detail what you mean by "splice all services at the electrical room"

It seems he is not getting the part of 230.3 which states you cannot run service conductors through the interior of another building... or is it maybe that I'm assuming it's another building.... ???

Either the units and electric room/garage building are legally considered one building... or they are not. Can't have it both ways whenever it suits.

 

[tico17]

It seems he is not getting the part of 230.3 which states you cannot run service conductors through the interior of another building... or is it maybe that I'm assuming it's another building.... ???

Either the units and electric room/garage building are legally considered one building... or they are not. Can't have it both ways whenever it suits.

i have attach the existing job conditions that im dealing with this is how they run the conduits and im trying to make it work. they are individuals units but i have to make sure i don't know that answer i will find out.

 

[Smart $]

i have attach the existing job conditions that im dealing with this is how they run the conduits and im trying to make it work. they are individuals units but i have to make sure i don't know that answer i will find out.

Task 1: Determine if each unit and electric room are considered separate buildings or all units and electric room are considered one building. Do this through the local building dept. (AHJ).

What you can and can't do bears upon the determination above. The way I see it, you have a problem either way...

If considered separate buildings, you can't have a service for one building (each unit) pass through the interior of another (the electric room).

If considered one building, the service disconnecting means must be located outside, or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service entrance conductors, which would be outside or immediately inside the electric room.

Task 2: Contact POCO and discuss metering possibilities, taking the above into consideration.

 

[meternerd]

Im not sure if you mean putting a main there or just splicing everything together as service conductors. If the latter, the only possible way I could see that happening is to use the section I mentioned previously to "get around" having to group the service disconnects, but you have to deal with 230.3. If you are talking about putting a main there, perhaps you can make it fly with the tap rules, or else have a breaker there for each feeder. As was mentioned previously though, I would seek the blessing of your utility for that one.


The grounding electrode conductor can land anywhere between the service point and the service disconnecting means. So yes you could bond in the gutter assuming you could make everything else work - 250.24(A)(1).

Careful.....some utilities (or maybe just us) are very particular where they will allow the GEC termination. If behind a sealable (unmetered) panel, (which a gutter ahead of meters would be), it is sometimes prohibited. Bonding and GEC can be different animals, depending on your definition. Based on your drawing, we (POCO) would likely require a main service disconnect ahead of the meters because they are not "grouped" and there are more than 6 total. Probably big bucks. I don't pretend to be a Code guy, but I do know what I've required in the past as a utility guy.

 

[meternerd]

Oops...waited too long to edit

Oops...waited too long to edit

Im not sure if you mean putting a main there or just splicing everything together as service conductors. If the latter, the only possible way I could see that happening is to use the section I mentioned previously to "get around" having to group the service disconnects, but you have to deal with 230.3. If you are talking about putting a main there, perhaps you can make it fly with the tap rules, or else have a breaker there for each feeder. As was mentioned previously though, I would seek the blessing of your utility for that one.


The grounding electrode conductor can land anywhere between the service point and the service disconnecting means. So yes you could bond in the gutter assuming you could make everything else work - 250.24(A)(1).

Careful.....some utilities (or maybe just us) are very particular where they will allow the GEC termination. If behind a seal-able (unmetered) panel, (which a gutter ahead of meters would be), it is sometimes prohibited. Bonding and GEC can be different animals, depending on your definition. Based on your drawing, we (POCO) would likely require a main service disconnect ahead of the meters because they are not "grouped" and there are more than 6 total. That would still be unmetered conductors and seal-able, though, so GEC would have to be somewhere else. Probably big bucks. I don't pretend to be a Code guy, but I do know what I've required in the past as a utility guy. Always best (and cheaper) to make everyone happy before they make you change it. Plus...I'd get it in writing that the utility said what you did was OK. Not always the same inspectors. Let them fight it out back at the office.

 

[tico17]

Careful.....some utilities (or maybe just us) are very particular where they will allow the GEC termination. If behind a seal-able (unmetered) panel, (which a gutter ahead of meters would be), it is sometimes prohibited. Bonding and GEC can be different animals, depending on your definition. Based on your drawing, we (POCO) would likely require a main service disconnect ahead of the meters because they are not "grouped" and there are more than 6 total. That would still be unmetered conductors and seal-able, though, so GEC would have to be somewhere else. Probably big bucks. I don't pretend to be a Code guy, but I do know what I've required in the past as a utility guy. Always best (and cheaper) to make everyone happy before they make you change it. Plus...I'd get it in writing that the utility said what you did was OK. Not always the same inspectors. Let them fight it out back at the office.

Thank you, as far as building department they are considered individual units, since I have a permit for every unit and conduits were ran in the front of the unit they do not go inside other units. I will call POCO and see their requirements or if the previous contractor had any instructions on how to bond all services

 

[tico17]

Task 1: Determine if each unit and electric room are considered separate buildings or all units and electric room are considered one building. Do this through the local building dept. (AHJ).

What you can and can't do bears upon the determination above. The way I see it, you have a problem either way...

If considered separate buildings, you can't have a service for one building (each unit) pass through the interior of another (the electric room).

If considered one building, the service disconnecting means must be located outside, or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service entrance conductors, which would be outside or immediately inside the electric room.

Task 2: Contact POCO and discuss metering possibilities, taking the above into consideration.

today i got the answer i was knew, old electrical contractor mess up, he should it run conduits straigt to POCO, now i guess i will have to contact Power company to see if they allow a live gutter in the electrical room and i guess i will bond every unit at its meter outside.