pinholes in copper plumbing pipes

[chip pampalon]

New customer contacted me re: pinholes in copper plumbing pipes as suggested by the plumber that the problem may be electrical grounding problem.

Other than possible chemicals in the water causing the problem, and possibly electrolysis problem from dissimilar metals in the piping system or piping touching ductwork and other dissimilar metal, is the grounding a possible issue. I have not visited the site to check the grounding connections.

Thank You,
Chip

 

[Smart $]

I seem to recall mention of this in an old post, but...

IMO there would likely be more indication than just a random located pin hole if the problem stemmed from grounding reasons, not all unlike a corrosion problem.

 

[K8MHZ]

I seem to recall mention of this in an old post, but...

IMO there would likely be more indication than just a random located pin hole if the problem stemmed from grounding reasons, not all unlike a corrosion problem.

I remember that too, but don't recall what the reason turned out to be.

 

[K8MHZ]

Here is some info:

As copper plumbing becomes old, pinhole leaks become increasingly common. The primary cause for this, however, is not merely aging of the pipes, as we shall see. Unfortunately, pinhole leaks in copper pipes typically occur in places where they are not observed until there has been significant water damage and mold infection. Plumbers have varying explanations for these leaks, but several causes are widely recognized within the industry. The three most common of these are chloramines in municipal water systems, particles of corrosion from aging water heaters, and high water pressure inside the pipes.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20141114/entlife/141119476/

 

[K8MHZ]

Here is a snip from a 65 page study done on pinhole leaks in copper:

The Task Force found no evidence to contribute pitting corrosion and the resulting pinhole leaksto any factors exterior to the plumbing. (e.g. electrolysis, lightning.)

Here is the link to the entire study:

https://www.wsscwater.com/files/live/sites/wssc/files/PDFs/Study of Pinhole leaks Report_1503042.pdf

 

[K8MHZ]

In summation, I don't think grounding or lack thereof has anything to do with pitted copper water pipes. I would like to know why the plumber thought that.

 

[mgookin]

Airborne corrosive fumes in an industrial environment certainly could contribute.

And Chinese drywall too.

I'd first look at the age of the pipe, the grade of the pipe, the pipe manufacturer and the water chemistry. In Cape Coral, Florida there was an issue of thousands (or maybe tens of thousands) of homes all experiencing failed copper piping in a short period of time. It was traced back to a particular grade of pipe made by the same manufacturer during a specific period. I don't remember the specifics. But the solution was to repipe which is what your plumber buddy's customer needs.

 

[kwired]

In summation, I don't think grounding or lack thereof has anything to do with pitted copper water pipes. I would like to know why the plumber thought that.

Because it is easy way to push the problem off on to someone else, and let them go though all the trouble to prove you were wrong. Also allows them to fix the leak and not be as responsible should their fix fail or another leak should come up - they have already warned you there may be other troubles. If they are good salesmen they talk customer into complete piping replacement with another product that is non conductive and non corrosive, otherwise they still need to at least fix the leak - big job or small job with no warranty - plumber still wins either way just by a different margin.

 

[GoldDigger]

It may not be easy to do, but a microscopic examination of a ring of pipe with a pinhole in it should reveal whether the pinhole grew from the inside of the pipe out or the outside of the pipe in.


Electrolysis between copper pipe and surrounding earth will start on the outside of the pipe. Corrosion due to anything in the water will start on the inside of the pipe.

 

[K8MHZ]

It may not be easy to do, but a microscopic examination of a ring of pipe with a pinhole in it should reveal whether the pinhole grew from the inside of the pipe out or the outside of the pipe in.


Electrolysis between copper pipe and surrounding earth will start on the outside of the pipe. Corrosion due to anything in the water will start on the inside of the pipe.

I don't think the OP was talking about pipe that was underground. I don't think I have ever seen copper used for underground. Even in a house with indoor copper pipe iron is probably used underground.

 

[ptonsparky]

I don't think the OP was talking about pipe that was underground. I don't think I have ever seen copper used for underground. Even in a house with indoor copper pipe iron is probably used underground.

Miles of CU pipe are buried in some sections of an area town.

Turbulence and dissolved particles in the water are other causes. Those dissolved particles are just like small bullets chipping away at the pipe. IIRC the green deposit that develops and coats the inside of the pipe helps protect it. Poor soldering practice at install can lead to an early demise.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I don't think the OP was talking about pipe that was underground. I don't think I have ever seen copper used for underground. Even in a house with indoor copper pipe iron is probably used underground.

For the last 50 years or so, our city has required copper service lines from their shut off at the curb to the house. They have just changed it to permit one of the non-metallic pipes.

 

[ActionDave]

In summation, I don't think grounding or lack thereof has anything to do with pitted copper water pipes. I would like to know why the plumber thought that.

Miles of CU pipe are buried in some sections of an area town.

Turbulence and dissolved particles in the water are other causes. Those dissolved particles are just like small bullets chipping away at the pipe. IIRC the green deposit that develops and coats the inside of the pipe helps protect it. Poor soldering practice at install can lead to an early demise.

I agree. It's not the bonding that is causing the problem.

 

[Ponchik]

A local plumber's technician told me they always ream the inside of every pipe so that little lip is gone. The lip on the interior of the pipe will cause water small turbulence and eventually that coupling will fail.

Question for the OP:
where are the pin holes? on the couplings or center of the pipe at random places?
Is this for one job or several jobs in a tract home project?
Did the same plumber did all of the plumbing or different plumbers at different jobs at different locations of the city?

You may want to ask the plumber do his own investigation proving that it is electrical related.

As mentioned earlier, I don't think it is electrical related.

 

[Tom176]

Hydraulic Eddy Currents

Hydraulic Eddy Currents

There is the possibility that small hydraulic eddy currents are created as the water flows through the pipe. These eddys could create wear in the walls of the pipes.

 

[Ponchik]

There is the possibility that small hydraulic eddy currents are created as the water flows through the pipe. These eddys could create wear in the walls of the pipes.

How would you check for eddy currents?

 

[ptonsparky]

How would you check for eddy currents?

Hydraulic.

 

[George Stolz]

Use clear couplings so that you can monitor the water.

 

[Ponchik]

Hydraulic.

How does the process work?

 

[ptonsparky]

How does the process work?

Basically the turbulence of the water and how it strikes the surface of the pipes as it goes through fittings etc. My SEWAG. Larger pipes instead of more pressure in smaller ones would cut the damage.