Baseball field lights tripping breakers.

[11bgrunt]

Are the breakers HID listed?

I know I didn't ask and I didn't check any of the breakers for this rating. A HID rating is news to me.
A quick Google and I get the info below from 2003. This is a 240 volt service but I don't see how that matters. To me HID is HID regardless. Surely someone on the design/build end is aware of this rating? This may have an impact if we find the breakers are not HID rated. Thanks to everyone.

What do SWD and HID ratings signify? What is the difference between them?

Circuit breakers used to switch 120V or 277V fluorescent lighting circuits must be listed and marked ``SWD`` or ``HID.`` Circuit breakers used to switch high-intensity discharge lighting circuits must be listed and marked ``HID.`` UL 489 (Standard on Molded Case Circuit Breakers) permits ``HID`` breakers to be rated up to 50A, whereas an ``SWD`` breaker is rated up to 20A. The tests for ``HID`` breakers include an endurance test at 75 percent power factor, whereas ``SWD`` breakers are endurance-tested at 100 percent power factor. The contacts and the spring of an ``HID`` breaker are heavier duty, to dissipate the increased heat from greater current flow during the HID ignition period. [Courtesy of Mike Holt newsletter 10/22/03]


CTA-ID : 2013150

 

[Sierrasparky]

I would say if you don't use the proper breaker then you risk failure and problems.
If the breakers are not properly rated for HID , I would think that is a start.

 

[GoldDigger]

I would say if you don't use the proper breaker then you risk failure and problems.
If the breakers are not properly rated for HID , I would think that is a start.

Somebody may argue that in the OP's case the trip is happening long past the startup phase.
But the high starting current may cause some instantaneous local heating of the contact surfaces, leading to degradation and increased resistance that will bite you later. Especially given that during normal use the contacts are stressed, but the breaker initially does not ever open. That means no wiling action to help mitigate contact damage.
Breaker listing tests require many operations, not many "just short of " operations.

 

[11bgrunt]

Somebody may argue that in the OP's case the trip is happening long past the startup phase.
But the high starting current may cause some instantaneous local heating of the contact surfaces, leading to degradation and increased resistance that will bite you later. Especially given that during normal use the contacts are stressed, but the breaker initially does not ever open. That means no wiling action to help mitigate contact damage.
Breaker listing tests require many operations, not many "just short of " operations.

Now just as I think I might have a leg up, I search and find this forum post from 2003.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=59887

The OP wrote; In article 240.83(D) it talks about swd or hid rated breakers for control of lighting circuits being panel switched are all breakers rated for this or is this someting thant need to be called out specifically when you do panel schedules and have breakers being used as switches??
The reply was;
"These breakers are only used for switching HID or FL lighting. SWD breakers are no longer available from mfgs, they are replaced by HID, which can be used on both locations. If you are not switching the lighting with the breakers then a standard breaker can be used."

I reported a contactor was being used for these lights and the breaker handles are not being operated to turn the lights on and off. Does it make any difference to the circuit breaker and is a HID rating still required? Yes or no, it seems the HID rating would be insurance against a problem similar to ours.

 

[kwired]

Now just as I think I might have a leg up, I search and find this forum post from 2003.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=59887

The OP wrote; In article 240.83(D) it talks about swd or hid rated breakers for control of lighting circuits being panel switched are all breakers rated for this or is this someting thant need to be called out specifically when you do panel schedules and have breakers being used as switches??
The reply was;
"These breakers are only used for switching HID or FL lighting. SWD breakers are no longer available from mfgs, they are replaced by HID, which can be used on both locations. If you are not switching the lighting with the breakers then a standard breaker can be used."

I reported a contactor was being used for these lights and the breaker handles are not being operated to turn the lights on and off. Does it make any difference to the circuit breaker and is a HID rating still required? Yes or no, it seems the HID rating would be insurance against a problem similar to ours.

HID and SWD ratings (SWD applies to fluorescent lighting) are only required when the breaker is used as the usual switching method for the lighting. AFAIK it has nothing to do with trip setting or and more to do with contact specifications within the breaker.

I think nearly all single pole 15 and 20 amp breakers for past 30 years or so have been SWD rated, maybe more then that but at least those versions.

 

[Ingenieur]

Amp the ckts
what ballast type?
what wire size are the ckts? Typical length?
pf can vary from 0.50 to 0.90
meaning for a 1500 w lamp supply current 7 to 14 A range

the fact that it seems to be the same ckts since they up-sized breakers on some is a place to start

 

[jim dungar]

Now just as I think I might have a leg up, I search and find this forum post from 2003.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=59887

"These breakers are only used for switching HID or FL lighting. SWD breakers are no longer available from mfgs, they are replaced by HID, which can be used on both locations. If you are not switching the lighting with the breakers then a standard breaker can be used."

The quotation is wrong.

SWD ratings are only available on 15 and 20A 120V and 277V 1-pole breakers. In days gone by, there was a special test to get this rating.. Maybe 20 years ago the SWD requirements were added to the standard breaker testing procedures so now a SWD rating is inherent to a UL489 listing. Some manufacturers still provide a SWD mark because some AHJ's want to see it, especially for re-used older equipment.

HID ratings are for breakers other than those that get an SWD rating. HID breakers are built to withstand the turn-on and turn-off time-current characteristics of HID lighting using magnetic ballasts. They often employ a slightly larger contact area and contact material.

 

[11bgrunt]

Went to the site today to review a few things. No HID marking on the breakers but it appears that HID breakers are not required because a contactor is used. Today one bank of lights wouldn't start. No covers were pulled but looked like no power from the breaker. Tomorrow the EC will change the panels and the breakers serving the baseball field, just because. Today we find the softball field built under the same contract is now experiencing similar problems but has been fine for two years. The EC will change that panel and those breakers also, just because.
Three fields were built on this contract three years ago using the same design and build folks. Certainly starting to look like a money pit to me.
All the currents seem in line for a 240 volt tap. Wire sizes seem suitable for the distance and if it weren't for some of these breakers tripping on thermal, all would be just perfect.

 

[Ingenieur]

Went to the site today to review a few things. No HID marking on the breakers but it appears that HID breakers are not required because a contactor is used. Today one bank of lights wouldn't start. No covers were pulled but looked like no power from the breaker. Tomorrow the EC will change the panels and the breakers serving the baseball field, just because. Today we find the softball field built under the same contract is now experiencing similar problems but has been fine for two years. The EC will change that panel and those breakers also, just because.
Three fields were built on this contract three years ago using the same design and build folks. Certainly starting to look like a money pit to me.
All the currents seem in line for a 240 volt tap. Wire sizes seem suitable for the distance and if it weren't for some of these breakers tripping on thermal, all would be just perfect.

What current in numbers?
when started
2-3 minutes in
10 minutes in

changing stuff out using tax payer $ without knowing the issue is criminal
sounds fishy

 

[11bgrunt]

What current in numbers?
when started
2-3 minutes in
10 minutes in

changing stuff out using tax payer $ without knowing the issue is criminal
sounds fishy

All warranty work. No money additional money being paid by ISD. I think the design/builders are just frustrated. Do something even if it isn't the smartest thing to do. Engineering manager for project is calling for a different route where some extensive troubleshooting takes place and since I just got an email that tomorrow's work is delayed, he may be making some progress. 4 gang will run 28 and 5 gang runs 33, on average.

 

[Ingenieur]

All warranty work. No money additional money being paid by ISD. I think the design/builders are just frustrated. Do something even if it isn't the smartest thing to do. Engineering manager for project is calling for a different route where some extensive troubleshooting takes place and since I just got an email that tomorrow's work is delayed, he may be making some progress. 4 gang will run 28 and 5 gang runs 33, on average.

Thanks
sounds like cooler heads prevail lol
at those currents no reason a 40 or 50 should trip
weird
sounds like you have the high pf ballasts 90%

 

[Sierrasparky]

All warranty work. No money additional money being paid by ISD. I think the design/builders are just frustrated. Do something even if it isn't the smartest thing to do. Engineering manager for project is calling for a different route where some extensive troubleshooting takes place and since I just got an email that tomorrow's work is delayed, he may be making some progress. 4 gang will run 28 and 5 gang runs 33, on average.

just going and replacing parts may not solve anything, especially if it takes time for the parts to degrade where the breakers trip. The only thing this does is kick the can down the road so to speak. The fact that another installation done the same is having issues says there is something going on. I can't imagine its only a brand of panel issue. If the panels are failing in such a short time why would this be a warranty issue without the manufacture stepping in? Since when is the EC directly responsible for products he does not manufacture. If I were the EC I would be getting the panel manufacture involved before I turned another screw.

The situation should be assessed in a scientific method.
current readings should be tracked and recorded.
Wiring should be checked for proper size and meggered.
Inground vaults should be checked for damage including damage from rodents.

I know you stated that the lighting is controlled by contactors. I say so what!
What is the actual turn on shut down procedure? I am still leaning to the breakers failing over time because of the way used. Maybe someone is using the breaker as the switch and not letting the contactor do the job.

Who knows and maybe someone is afraid that the EC is not at fault and this is not a warranty issue.

 

[11bgrunt]

What did happen at the baseball field; Manufacture gave new panels and HID breakers. They haven't tripped a breaker in a 1 and 2 hour test. I don't know who is eating the labor. I wasn't involved in any discussions with the trio but this week was the baseball field and next week is the softball field. They are replacing all parts except the contactors from what I can tell. I asked them to let me shoot baseline thermal after a 3 hour run time so in the event they have/have not fixed the problem, we will know what it looked like when it did work.
There is a chance you will see this thread again next baseball season.

 

[zach_zachary1@yahoo.com]

Hopefully that takes care of it. Interesting topic. Please follow up if it doesnt work.

 

[zbang]

Yes, please let us all know how it turns out.