Hallway.. 3way switchs

[roger]

So in a unfinished basement with 6 or more risers I must have a switch at the top and the bottom of the risers 3 way or 2 single switches and lights ?

You need the switches, not lights.

Roger

 

[infinity]

So in a unfinished basement with 6 or more risers I must have a switch at the top and the bottom of the risers 3 way or 2 single switches and lights ?

You do not need 3-ways.

 

[jumper]

Food for thought, we can install as many single pole, threeways, and fouways as we want in hallways and stairwells but the NEC doesn't even require luminaires for these spaces, just lighting outlets. IOW's, a box with a blank plate.

Roger

Crazy, but true.

 

[George Stolz]

I don't have a three way in my house. I have several single pole switches that respond to radio signals from remotes placed at various landings where one would find a three way switch. The travelers are tied through so that the single poles can control the lights.

I agree with the above who state that the NEC doesn't require three way or four way switches, you can install simple single poles at every landing for a minimum code compliant house.

 

[kwired]

So in a unfinished basement with 6 or more risers I must have a switch at the top and the bottom of the risers 3 way or 2 single switches and lights ?

I guess if you read it pretty strictly you could say the rule for a switch at every floor/landing applies to any interior stairway regardless of what kind of space it leads to. I myself have no issue with only a switch at the top of a stairway to a basement that is essentially never going to be used for anything but mechanical area and/or storage area, and feel similar about having only a switch at bottom of a stairway to an attic that is not used as a habitable area.

 

[goldstar]

Food for thought, we can install as many single pole, threeways, and fouways as we want in hallways and stairwells but the NEC doesn't even require luminaires for these spaces, just lighting outlets. IOW's, a box with a blank plate.

In following this thread I've come to the understanding that 3 and 4-ways are not required by the NEC. Now, I don't mean to beat this thread to death but could someone explain the logic behind this ?

1. You don't specifically need a luminaire in the hall space but you have to provide a LIGHTING OUTLET in that space in the event you decide to install one ?
2. AND, you have to switch that lighting outlet in the event you decide to install a luminaire ?
3. You don't need 3 or 4-ways even if you have to walk 50' in the dark to turn on a luminaire (providing one is installed)

What am I not seeing about this ? Am I missing something or have the CMP's missed something over the years :?

 

[iwire]

You don't specifically need a luminaire in the hall space but you have to provide a LIGHTING OUTLET in that space in the event you decide to install one ?

Not exactly, the NEC rules require lighting outlets in specific rooms not light fixtures.

(Building codes and other rules may require light fixtures for occupancy but not the NEC.)

AND, you have to switch that lighting outlet in the event you decide to install a luminaire ?

The code requires 1 wall switch controlling at least 1 lighting outlet in certain rooms. Bedrooms, kitchens etc. Regarless of you installing a fixture or not.

You don't need 3 or 4-ways even if you have to walk 50' in the dark to turn on a luminaire (providing one is installed)

Correct, the NEC is a minimum, not a design specification.

What am I not seeing about this ? Am I missing something or have the CMP's missed something over the years :?

I think you are missing 90.1 and specifically part of 90.1(B)

90.1 Purpose.

(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is
the practical safeguarding of persons and property from
hazards arising from the use of electricity.

(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered
necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and
proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially
free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient,
or adequate for good service or future expansion of
electrical use.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

 

[goldstar]

Not exactly, the NEC rules require lighting outlets in specific rooms not light fixtures.

(Building codes and other rules may require light fixtures for occupancy but not the NEC.)

Okay, I think that explains it a little better.

The code requires 1 wall switch controlling at least 1 lighting outlet in certain rooms. Bedrooms, kitchens etc. Regardless of you installing a fixture or not.

Understood. Unless luminaires are required by other Codes

Correct, the NEC is a minimum, not a design specification.

Understood

I think you are missing 90.1 and specifically part of 90.1(B)

Understood but I think that section covers a wide area and applies to more than required lighting. Perhaps that's an issue for future Code cycles.

 

[kwired]

Also keep in mind that even though the NEC requires wall switch controlled lighting outlets in various places, not many of them are specified where the wall switch needs to be.

A third floor bedroom requires a wall switched lighting outlet but there is no prohibition of placing the one and only switch in a first floor room.

 

[goldstar]

Also keep in mind that even though the NEC requires wall switch controlled lighting outlets in various places, not many of them are specified where the wall switch needs to be.

A third floor bedroom requires a wall switched lighting outlet but there is no prohibition of placing the one and only switch in a first floor room.

Doesn't that seem weird to anyone other than me ? I know I often don't think "out of the box" at times but that's one of the most bizarre ideas I've heard yet, even if it is true.

 

[iwire]

Unless luminaires are required by other Codes

Yes, but under the NEC you pass electrical without fixtures. If there are building codes requiring it that should not be an issue for the electrical inspector.

Understood but I think that section covers a wide area and applies to more than required lighting. Perhaps that's an issue for future Code cycles.

I do not see an issue that needs fixing.

Are a lot of homes being sold without fixtures installed?

 

[iwire]

Doesn't that seem weird to anyone other than me ? I know I often don't think "out of the box" at times but that's one of the most bizarre ideas I've heard yet, even if it is true.

Read what the code section says and you will see it is true.

But are you seeing a lot of homes with the switches located in other rooms?

Here is what I believe, I believe the location is unspecified because trying to describe the location specifically will always fail due to the wide range of rooms, layouts etc that the NEC applies too.

The other thing is simply this, customer satisfaction. How long do you figure an EC would keep getting work if they never used three and four ways? Or they located the wall switches for every room on a wall in the basement beside the panel?

 

[kwired]

Doesn't that seem weird to anyone other than me ? I know I often don't think "out of the box" at times but that's one of the most bizarre ideas I've heard yet, even if it is true.

No it doesn't seem that weird to me if you take a look at 90.1, but there are many other sections where NEC doesn't even comply with it's own purpose and those type of things have grown in past 20 years maybe faster then ever before.

If you want my opinion NEC possibly shouldn't even require luminaires in just about any space. Some other code should require the illumination IMO as well as where any control locations should be, and all NEC should tell us how to make it safe from electric shock, or fire hazards, etc. if the luminaire is electrically powered.

This could mean we still might see gas lamps unless other codes only allowed electric lamps.

 

[goldstar]

I do not see an issue that needs fixing.

Are a lot of homes being sold without fixtures installed?

Just seems odd to me. I suppose you could wire a house, provide a blanked off lighting outlet in the center of a ceiling or even a switched receptacle and still pass an inspection. But, if you applied the same logic to plumbers, they could provide a drain outlet and water sources and not have a sink or faucets installed. Think about the repercussions from that scenario.:slaphead:

 

[iwire]

Just seems odd to me. I suppose you could wire a house, provide a blanked off lighting outlet in the center of a ceiling or even a switched receptacle and still pass an inspection.

When I wired condos in the 1980s that is exactly what we would do. The units would have white blanks in the kitchen, dinning room etc. Most locations just got switched outlets.

The buyer of the condo would provide the lighting fixtures if they wanted any when they moved in which was long after we got our final inspections.

Here is the section we have been talking about.

210.70 Lighting Outlets Required. Lighting outlets shall
be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).

(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets
shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2),
and (A)(3).

(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch–controlled
lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room
and bathroom.

Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms,
one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall
be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.

Exception No. 2: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be
controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to
wall switches or (2) located at a customary wall switch
location and equipped with a manual override that will
allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.

Exception number 2 is fairly recent and add some confusion.

 

[iwire]

If you want my opinion NEC possibly shouldn't even require luminaires in just about any space. Some other code should require the illumination IMO as well as where any control locations should be, and all NEC should tell us how to make it safe from electric shock, or fire hazards, etc. if the luminaire is electrically powered.

:thumbsup:

 

[peter d]

No it doesn't seem that weird to me if you take a look at 90.1, but there are many other sections where NEC doesn't even comply with it's own purpose and those type of things have grown in past 20 years maybe faster then ever before.

If you want my opinion NEC possibly shouldn't even require luminaires in just about any space. Some other code should require the illumination IMO as well as where any control locations should be, and all NEC should tell us how to make it safe from electric shock, or fire hazards, etc. if the luminaire is electrically powered.

This could mean we still might see gas lamps unless other codes only allowed electric lamps.

In my area, the building code does address luminaire locations, at least on the outside of a dwelling and in hallways.

 

[kwired]

In my area, the building code does address luminaire locations, at least on the outside of a dwelling and in hallways.

Does it actually specify luminaire locations or does it tell you minimum foot candles of illumination that need to be provided at specific places?

 

[John120/240]

Does it actually specify luminaire locations or does it tell you minimum foot candles of illumination that need to be provided at specific places?

Local ordinance in one city requires at least one flood light on the rear of the residence at least 8' above grade switched inside, usually near the back door. Crime prevention is their logic. One lamp or two lamp flood or quartz halogen or LED flood type not specified.

 

[kwired]

Local ordinance in one city requires at least one flood light on the rear of the residence at least 8' above grade switched inside, usually near the back door. Crime prevention is their logic. One lamp or two lamp flood or quartz halogen or LED flood type not specified.

Crime prevention? How about some antipersonnel mines instead - would be more effective