grandfathered Vending Machine - selling cards GFCI requirement

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thewire

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Existing machine grandfathered in the requirement of the having a GFCI outlet. NEC 422.51 required vending machines that are directly wired, as well as those that are cord-and-plug connected, are required to be GFCI protected.

So, if the internal machine require upgrade such as PC board, bill collector or coin vault or even the credit card reader, and adding UPS in the machine, is the outlet required to meet the 422.51?

existing machine is plug to outlet
 
I don't think there are any "grandfathered" exceptions to this rule.

If you have a vending machine, it needs GFCI protection.
 
steve66 said:
I don't think there are any "grandfathered" exceptions to this rule.

If you have a vending machine, it needs GFCI protection.
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So when that provision went into effect all existing installations had to be updated immediately? I did not think the NEC worked that way.
 
422.51(A): If the vending machine was made before January 1, 2005, it does not need to have a GFCI built into the attachment plug (or within 12 inches of the plug). But it does need to be plugged into a GFCI outlet.
 
charlie b said:
422.51(A): If the vending machine was made before January 1, 2005, it does not need to have a GFCI built into the attachment plug (or within 12 inches of the plug). But it does need to be plugged into a GFCI outlet.
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Only if local/state amendments require it. None of the NFPA standards and codes are retroactive and they usually say that somewhere up front. If it was in NJ and the building and machine were in place before the change you would not have to go back and put in a GFCI breaker, or even an outlet.
 
charlie b said:
422.51(A): If the vending machine was made before January 1, 2005, it does not need to have a GFCI built into the attachment plug (or within 12 inches of the plug). But it does need to be plugged into a GFCI outlet.
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It also says a machine that is remanufactured. Field replacement of a board or card reader is probably not remanufacturing it though, but rather a repair.
 
cowboyjwc said:
How existing are you talking about? Was it there before 2011?
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yes the machine been in since 2000 or earlier. So basically the machine will be possible rehab (gutted 80% of the internal parts and replaced with new parts. The shell will be staying.

Machine Power supply will possible be replaced as well
 
iwire said:
In my opinion as soon as the vending machine is replaced with another any grandfathering goes away.
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Also I agreed any changes, grandfathered goes away, but ...
I am definitely in support for the having the GFCI installed but it required justification for the higher ups on why and what. So I need to make sure I have all my ducks in the roll

So the machines itself are not replaced but the internal yes.
 
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thewire said:
Also I agreed any changes, grandfathered goes away, but ...
I am definitely in support for the having the GFCI installed but it required justification for the higher ups on why and what. So I need to make sure I have all my ducks in the roll

So the machines itself are not replaced but the internal yes.
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All depends on if the changes make it become "remanufactured".
 
kwired said:
All depends on if the changes make it become "remanufactured".
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Where I can find the definition of re-manufactured? What's constitute of that? Where we draw the line as someone can defined change of power supply considered as re-manufactured and vice versa? Is it defined anywhere within the NEC code?
 
thewire said:
Where I can find the definition of re-manufactured? What's constitute of that? Where we draw the line as someone can defined change of power supply considered as re-manufactured and vice versa? Is it defined anywhere within the NEC code?
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There is no definition, drawing the line is covered by 110.3.
 
thewire said:
Where I can find the definition of re-manufactured? What's constitute of that? Where we draw the line as someone can defined change of power supply considered as re-manufactured and vice versa? Is it defined anywhere within the NEC code?
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Not to sound like a jerk but what's your interest in this machine? Do you own it? Is it on your property or your employer's property? How about spending the $20 and mitigate the liability whether it's required or not?
 
mgookin said:
Not to sound like a jerk but what's your interest in this machine? Do you own it? Is it on your property or your employer's property? How about spending the $20 and mitigate the liability whether it's required or not?
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not at all :)

The problem is the financial portion someone needs to make. We are talking about over 1000 machines and the labor cost. Yes in a perfect world, changing the $20 part + labor cost will be the best solution. Trust me, I am all for it. But in the world of financial and government, I have to provide justifications. I can't just say blantly it's safety and NEC. Someone will come back to me show me why and where
 
Sounds like that is remanfactured

Sounds like that is remanfactured

thewire said:
yes the machine been in since 2000 or earlier. So basically the machine will be possible rehab (gutted 80% of the internal parts and replaced with new parts. The shell will be staying.

Machine Power supply will possible be replaced as well
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Sounds like that is remanfactured to me. Also you said "this machine" then you said 1000 machines. I would suggest since you are replacing so much already just change to cord to a GFI cord and protect yourself and others.
 
thewire said:
not at all :)

The problem is the financial portion someone needs to make. We are talking about over 1000 machines and the labor cost. Yes in a perfect world, changing the $20 part + labor cost will be the best solution. Trust me, I am all for it. But in the world of financial and government, I have to provide justifications. I can't just say blantly it's safety and NEC. Someone will come back to me show me why and where
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That was in the back of my mind but it was a long shot.

Regardless of what code requires, when (not if) someone gets injured by one of the 1,000 machines, the attorneys will argue that you knew or should have known it is a danger because code requires it. All of us can argue this forever and everyone raises valid points. But it doesn't matter what we say in the end. It only matters what a jury believes. And by the way, insurance companies usually offer up a quick $50k to make a claim go away because it will cost that to fight it and they still run the risk of having to make a big payout.

I'd think you could craft a well written letter to someone in risk management saying you've researched the matter and it appears to be ambiguous. Attorneys don't like that word. It means whoever makes the best argument wins. And if you're the one trying to say that injured kid is not your fault, others may side with the grieving family and not you.

If someone owns 1,000+ vending machines, hopefully they have $20k to invest in protecting their customers. It just seems like the logical thing to do, all things being considered.
 
thewire said:
Where I can find the definition of re-manufactured? What's constitute of that? Where we draw the line as someone can defined change of power supply considered as re-manufactured and vice versa? Is it defined anywhere within the NEC code?
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Since the NEC does not define "remanufactured" the ruling by the AHJ could and probably would go to the actual definition.

From Dictionary.com

verb (used with object), remanufactured, remanufacturing. 1. to refurbish (a used product) by renovating and reassembling its components:
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Then looking at renovate

verb (used with object), renovated, renovating. 1. to restore to good condition; make new or as if new again; repair.
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So it could be said any repair or modification means the machine has been remanufactured.

Roger
 
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