grandfathered Vending Machine - selling cards GFCI requirement

thewire

Member
Location
Raleigh
Sounds like that is remanfactured to me. Also you said "this machine" then you said 1000 machines. I would suggest since you are replacing so much already just change to cord to a GFI cord and protect yourself and others.

sorry, wasn't meant to confused anyone..yes it'a lot of machines

Yes, i am proposing for the GFCI retrofit as well part of the proposal but I am just doing my due diligent to make sure I have some documentation to backup my assessment. That's all!

thanks !
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
422.51(A): If the vending machine was made before January 1, 2005, it does not need to have a GFCI built into the attachment plug (or within 12 inches of the plug). But it does need to be plugged into a GFCI outlet.
Only if local/state amendments require it. None of the NFPA standards and codes are retroactive and they usually say that somewhere up front. If it was in NJ and the building and machine were in place before the change you would not have to go back and put in a GFCI breaker, or even an outlet.
I disagree. If a local or state code takes away the requirement for plugging an older machine into a GFCI protected outlet, then the requirement does not apply. But the NEC does explicitly say that this machine must be plugged into a GFCI protected outlet, unless it was made after 1/1/05, in which case the machine must have GFCI built into its cord. Take a look at the article I cited.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member


I disagree. If a local or state code takes away the requirement for plugging an older machine into a GFCI protected outlet, then the requirement does not apply. But the NEC does explicitly say that this machine must be plugged into a GFCI protected outlet, unless it was made after 1/1/05, in which case the machine must have GFCI built into its cord. Take a look at the article I cited.
So if the NEC says that it must be plugged only into a GFCI receptacle, just be sure not to unplug it or else you will not be allowed to plug it back in again. :angel:
 

steve66

Senior Member
So when that provision went into effect all existing installations had to be updated immediately? I did not think the NEC worked that way.
Normally, you are correct. But this paragraph is a little different - it's a requirement for the type of receptacle that a machine can be plugged into. It's more of a maintenance item than an most of the NEC installation requirements. Most of these machines are serviced and repaired and refilled almost weekly. The maintenance guys options are to either install a GFCI on the plug, or plug it into a GFCI. There is no third option that it was fine when I got here, so I'll just leave it as is.

If it makes you feel better, I would say the new requirement didn't take effect immediately, but rather took effect the first time the vending machine was unplugged for service, and then plugged back in.


Wouldn't that depend on local rules? I don't think the term 'grandfathered' is even in the NEC.
True, if you can find someplace that hasn't adopted the 2005 NEC, or if they specifically exclude this paragraph, then I'll agree the GFI isn't necessary. Now that we know it might be 1000 machines, the vast majority, if not all, will fall under this requirement.

And you are correct, the term grandfathered isn't in the NEC. It is normally up to local jurisdictions to decide when new requirements take effect. All the more reason I wouldn't want to hang my hat on these being "grandfathered".

Putting the whole "grandfathered" item aside, if you are replacing 80% of the internal parts, IMO there is no question that it is remanufactured. You are basically keeping the shell.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
The NEC is a construction code. It is not a property maintenance code.

Edit: I just went and read 422. I can't believe they are trying to act as the CPSC.
An iron has to have a stand? Why is that an electrical code issue? It is a product safety issue.

After reading 422.51 I think OP needs the GFCI integrated in his cord & plug. When doing all that work it's hard to argue that he's not "remanufacturing".

I still say the NEC has no standing to compel manufacturing specifications of cord & plug connected equipment, but that's not what's on the table. Are UL & NFPA having a tug of war? I know UL has been giving in on costs & lead times for listing services which means their competition is having an effect on their bottom line. They also reorganized some time back (5 or 10 years ago). It's noteworthy that UL stands for "Underwriters" Laboratories whereas the underwriters are the insurance companies. We give all this money to insurance companies to protect THEIR interests. But that's for another thread.
 
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thewire

Member
Location
Raleigh
The NEC is a construction code. It is not a property maintenance code.

Edit: I just went and read 422. I can't believe they are trying to act as the CPSC.
An iron has to have a stand? Why is that an electrical code issue? It is a product safety issue.

After reading 422.51 I think OP needs the GFCI integrated in his cord & plug. When doing all that work it's hard to argue that he's not "remanufacturing".

I still say the NEC has no standing to compel manufacturing specifications of cord & plug connected equipment, but that's not what's on the table. Are UL & NFPA having a tug of war? I know UL has been giving in on costs & lead times for listing services which means their competition is having an effect on their bottom line. They also reorganized some time back (5 or 10 years ago). It's noteworthy that UL stands for "Underwriters" Laboratories whereas the underwriters are the insurance companies. We give all this money to insurance companies to protect THEIR interests. But that's for another thread.
Thank you all for the comments. I have already submitted the proposal for the integrated GFCI on the cord and plug since the power supply will be replaced as well.

Now I can justify with the management why I have been telling them all along and I have documentation to back it up
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety


I disagree. If a local or state code takes away the requirement for plugging an older machine into a GFCI protected outlet, then the requirement does not apply. But the NEC does explicitly say that this machine must be plugged into a GFCI protected outlet, unless it was made after 1/1/05, in which case the machine must have GFCI built into its cord. Take a look at the article I cited.
Feel free to disagree, but if you tried to enforce that in NJ you'd get smacked up the side of the head with the rehab code.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Feel free to disagree, but if you tried to enforce that in NJ you'd get smacked up the side of the head with the rehab code.
Good thing that I am not licensed to practice in NJ. :happyno: But let me reiterate my point by asking whether you have knowledge of a code amendment enacted by the State of NJ that explicitly declines to adopt NEC article 422.51(A). NJ has adopted the 2014 NEC with their own amendments. Right now, I cannot access those amendments, because of some legal dispute involving the NFPA and the public's right of access to public law. I don't know what is going on there. But the bottom line is that the NEC is law, except to the point that some other law has overridden part of it. So here again, has that happened in NJ with NEC 422.51(A)?

 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Good thing that I am not licensed to practice in NJ. :happyno: But let me reiterate my point by asking whether you have knowledge of a code amendment enacted by the State of NJ that explicitly declines to adopt NEC article 422.51(A). NJ has adopted the 2014 NEC with their own amendments. Right now, I cannot access those amendments, because of some legal dispute involving the NFPA and the public's right of access to public law. I don't know what is going on there. But the bottom line is that the NEC is law, except to the point that some other law has overridden part of it. So here again, has that happened in NJ with NEC 422.51(A)?

There is an intro to the rehab code here.

You can look at the text here.

If you had an existing vending machine connected to a standard outlet, in order to comply with 422.51(A) you'd have to either make the circuit GFCI or install a GFCI outlet. The rehab subcode says that for existing installations you can't be forced to bring them up to current code. Even if you didn't have an existing vending machine and wanted to put one in now I don't think that anyone could force you to make a change to the circuit to make it compliant with the 2014 edition.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If you have an existing vending machine and an existing outlet, chances are there is no inspection/code enforcement or even electrical permit required. This situation could be that way for many reasons, simplest is vending machine gets moved - no changes are made to premises wiring, it simply gets unplugged from old location and plugged in at new location.

If you are running a new circuit (and NEC applies) and it is known the outlet is for a vending machine then you need to provide GFCI protection if the appliance doesn't have any protection.

That is my thoughts based strictly on NEC content. Maybe you have some other safety official or even an insurance company that will want GFCI protection even if the thing is otherwise "grandfathered".
 
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