Biggest misunderstandings with 3 phase power......

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jim dungar

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dionysius said:
... since it does at least validate the feasibility of the approach being discussed here.
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His contraption shows how a single rotating device can cause three single pumps, to operate out of phase with each other . Now lets see the video of how it works without the return tube (open neutral), or when they are connected in a delta.
 
G

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
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Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
dionysius said:
For what it is worth I did post another thread on this subject featuring a YouTube video that I found a couple of days ago after serious search.

Some of you might find it helpful since it does at least validate the feasibility of the approach being discussed here.

The link to the thread is:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=177625

The link to the video itself is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnH_ifcRJq4
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When the complexity of the analogy approaches the complexity of the thing itself, the analogy loses whatever usefulness it had. If you want to understand how electricity works, study electricity.
 
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Ingenieur

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ggunn said:
When the complexity of the analogy approaches the complexity of the thing itself, the analogy loses whatever usefulness it had. If you want to understand how electricity works, study electricity.
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yepper

the layman has no better intrinsic understanding of hydraulics, complex hydraulics with devices intended to simulate electrical device, of which they possess no knowlegde of either!

it makes it 4 times as difficult to understand the root subject
I have 30 years experience and a good education and the hydraulic model is confusing as heck to me.

The approach makes no sense
 
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Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
jim dungar said:
His contraption shows how a single rotating device can cause three single pumps, to operate out of phase with each other . Now lets see the video of how it works without the return tube (open neutral), or when they are connected in a delta.
Click to expand...

lol

the fact that he believes his arguement validates his approach tells me he understands niether

not sure why he is so adverse to taking classes in the actual subject if he is truely interested
and doggedly sticks to it despite subject matter experts with 100's of years of education/experience telling him it is not a good approach, actually a bad one
 
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dionysius

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Location
WA
Cloud Nine.....

Cloud Nine.....

It maybe useful to analyze the nature of an analogy.

Let us take one that is ubiquitous. "It is the last straw that breaks the camel's back".

This analogy is widely used in part because of its sheer popularity in modern usage. In and of itself it is usually more complex than that which it is used to describe. Yet another feature of a successful analogy is its ability to paint a graphic mental picture which is enduring. Very few people, if any, have or will ever see a single straw being added on to an sub-critically pre-loaded camel. However the sheer outlandishness of the scenario actually facilitates the mental imagery that it conjures up.

Assume you are called to a young beautiful lady's Upper East Side apartment because "her breaker keep tripping". After clearing the doorman's security you enter this lavish antebellum apartment with rococo gold plated ceiling trim and murals. This beautiful doll-like maiden with platinum blonde hair gasps to you in frustration. You quickly discern that the offending breaker controls her bathroom anteroom. You notice five(5) different models of hairdryers laying around. After very detailed analysis you suspect the culprit is the one that sucks the most watts and has a negroid patina on its curved baby-blue bell housing. She confesses indeed that the failure does correlate with her use of this sometimes and upon much more detailed and highly interactive investigation you deduce that her curling irons could also be warming up on occasion. Being the true hero that you are you calmly recreate the fault and her lightly bronzed yet concerned and celestial face glows with delight. You grab that energy bandit hairdryer and almost ready to strangle it you declare: "It is this last straw that breaks the camel's back". She looks at you exclaiming your brilliance. You are questioning whether or not you need to take the elevator or just fly like Batman out the window and softly land on Central Park before continuing home to your charming wife of 30 years. The alternate approach is to explain electrically the inner anatomy of a circuit breaker.
 
C

Carultch

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Ingenieur said:
What are you smoking?
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Long story short, you are called to investigate a customer's breaker that continues to trip. You discover the culpret on the overloaded circuit, and explain that one appliance has to be relocated.


You make an analogy statement, like "this is the last straw that broke the camel's back", the customer understands the problem in more obvious terms, and accepts your advice.
Or you explain every volt, every ampere, every kcmil of wire, and exactly how the inner-workings of a breaker work, to make a precise, literal statement about what really happened.
 
iwire

iwire

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Carultch said:
Long story short, you are called to investigate a customer's breaker that continues to trip. You discover the culpret on the overloaded circuit, and explain that one appliance has to be relocated.


You make an analogy statement, like "this is the last straw that broke the camel's back", the customer understands the problem in more obvious terms, and accepts your advice.
Or you explain every volt, every ampere, every kcmil of wire, and exactly how the inner-workings of a breaker work, to make a precise, literal statement about what really happened.
Click to expand...

This is not the same at all.

In your example you are trying to explain something to a layman that does not know the trade and has no interest in learning it.

OTH the OPs is suggestion is to use a convoluted fluid analogy to teach people electrical theory who want to learn electrical theory.

Just teach the subject.
 
I

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Carultch said:
Long story short, you are called to investigate a customer's breaker that continues to trip. You discover the culpret on the overloaded circuit, and explain that one appliance has to be relocated.


You make an analogy statement, like "this is the last straw that broke the camel's back", the customer understands the problem in more obvious terms, and accepts your advice.
Or you explain every volt, every ampere, every kcmil of wire, and exactly how the inner-workings of a breaker work, to make a precise, literal statement about what really happened.
Click to expand...

or you say the ckt is sized for 20 Units of electricity
but the appliance draws over 20 and shuts off to protect it

I tend to avoid treating people like morons
always comes back to bite you ;)
 
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jim dungar

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Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Carultch said:
You make an analogy statement, like "this is the last straw that broke the camel's back", the customer understands the problem in more obvious terms, and accepts your advice.
Or you explain every volt, every ampere, every kcmil of wire, and exactly how the inner-workings of a breaker work, to make a precise, literal statement about what really happened.
Click to expand...

You did not use an analogy. You used an adage.
An analogy would have been: 'a circuit breaker is like a camel, it can only carry so much load. Add enough straw and you will break the camel, add enough hair dryers and you will trip the circuit breaker'.

did you notice how my analogy did not try to explain anything about electrical theory? Analogies can be very useful.
 
mivey

mivey

Senior Member
dionysius said:
It maybe useful to analyze the nature of an analogy.

Let us take one that is ubiquitous. "It is the last straw that breaks the camel's back".

This analogy is widely used in part because of its sheer popularity in modern usage. In and of itself it is usually more complex than that which it is used to describe. Yet another feature of a successful analogy is its ability to paint a graphic mental picture which is enduring. Very few people, if any, have or will ever see a single straw being added on to an sub-critically pre-loaded camel. However the sheer outlandishness of the scenario actually facilitates the mental imagery that it conjures up.
Click to expand...
We had a game that did just that. The plastic camel had two parts with a pivot point and the parts were held together with a rubber band. Players kept adding "straws" until the camel's back broke and it collapsed downward.
 
mivey

mivey

Senior Member
jim dungar said:
You did not use an analogy. You used an adage.
An analogy would have been: 'a circuit breaker is like a camel, it can only carry so much load. Add enough straw and you will break the camel, add enough hair dryers and you will trip the circuit breaker'.

did you notice how my analogy did not try to explain anything about electrical theory? Analogies can be very useful.
Click to expand...
Weisenheimer!:D
 
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