ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Compared to each other?
Biggest misunderstandings with 3 phase power......
- Thread starter dionysius
- Start date
- Status
Compared to each other?
I like that answer/question, g !!!!!
I want to thank everybody so far for the help you have all given me. I now have a model deeply implanted that I can reference when I am thinking on 3 phase.
For those interested this is what is known as an abstraction.
An example of an abstraction is if you go to a new county and you want to drive to an address. You can learn the road system layout the hard way by driving around. A better way is to use a road map. The road map will show you how to find the address but it will not tell you everything. For example it will not tell you if the road is a blacktop or that there are warning road signs place at certain places.
Once again thank you all so much. Something that Carultch stated really clinched it for me with his reactance descriptors.
Bear in mind that my fluid is ideal and totally laminar. Vortices and Eddys do not occur. This is one perspective for me. It does not nor did I ever imaging it will replace the other wonderful abstraction viz. the mathematical model. The math model is so good that people use it and some never think of the physics underlying it as someone else already stated.
For those interested this is what is known as an abstraction.
An example of an abstraction is if you go to a new county and you want to drive to an address. You can learn the road system layout the hard way by driving around. A better way is to use a road map. The road map will show you how to find the address but it will not tell you everything. For example it will not tell you if the road is a blacktop or that there are warning road signs place at certain places.
Once again thank you all so much. Something that Carultch stated really clinched it for me with his reactance descriptors.
Bear in mind that my fluid is ideal and totally laminar. Vortices and Eddys do not occur. This is one perspective for me. It does not nor did I ever imaging it will replace the other wonderful abstraction viz. the mathematical model. The math model is so good that people use it and some never think of the physics underlying it as someone else already stated.
I want to thank everybody so far for the help you have all given me. I now have a model deeply implanted that I can reference when I am thinking on 3 phase.
For those interested this is what is known as an abstraction.
An example of an abstraction is if you go to a new county and you want to drive to an address. You can learn the road system layout the hard way by driving around. A better way is to use a road map. The road map will show you how to find the address but it will not tell you everything. For example it will not tell you if the road is a blacktop or that there are warning road signs place at certain places.
Once again thank you all so much. Something that Carultch stated really clinched it for me with his reactance descriptors.
Bear in mind that my fluid is ideal and totally laminar. Vortices and Eddys do not occur. This is one perspective for me. It does not nor did I ever imagine it will replace the other wonderful abstraction viz. the mathematical model. The math model is so good that people use it and some never think of the physics underlying it as someone else already stated. This is only a supplemental tool and I would love to think that even one other person has benefited from my crazy excursion. My mission has never been to insult or put down anyone. I want to contribute.
For those interested this is what is known as an abstraction.
An example of an abstraction is if you go to a new county and you want to drive to an address. You can learn the road system layout the hard way by driving around. A better way is to use a road map. The road map will show you how to find the address but it will not tell you everything. For example it will not tell you if the road is a blacktop or that there are warning road signs place at certain places.
Once again thank you all so much. Something that Carultch stated really clinched it for me with his reactance descriptors.
Bear in mind that my fluid is ideal and totally laminar. Vortices and Eddys do not occur. This is one perspective for me. It does not nor did I ever imagine it will replace the other wonderful abstraction viz. the mathematical model. The math model is so good that people use it and some never think of the physics underlying it as someone else already stated. This is only a supplemental tool and I would love to think that even one other person has benefited from my crazy excursion. My mission has never been to insult or put down anyone. I want to contribute.
I want to thank everybody so far for the help you have all given me. I now have a model deeply implanted that I can reference when I am thinking on 3 phase.
For those interested this is what is known as an abstraction.
An example of an abstraction is if you go to a new county and you want to drive to an address. You can learn the road system layout the hard way by driving around. A better way is to use a road map. The road map will show you how to find the address but it will not tell you everything. For example it will not tell you if the road is a blacktop or that there are warning road signs place at certain places.
Once again thank you all so much. Something that Carultch stated really clinched it for me with his reactance descriptors.
Bear in mind that my fluid is ideal and totally laminar. Vortices and Eddys do not occur. This is one perspective for me. It does not nor did I ever imagine it will replace the other wonderful abstraction viz. the mathematical model. The math model is so good that people use it and some never think of the physics underlying it as someone else already stated. This is only a supplemental tool and I would love to think that even one other person has benefited from my crazy excursion. My mission has never been to insult or put down anyone. I want merely to contribute my little bit.
For those interested this is what is known as an abstraction.
An example of an abstraction is if you go to a new county and you want to drive to an address. You can learn the road system layout the hard way by driving around. A better way is to use a road map. The road map will show you how to find the address but it will not tell you everything. For example it will not tell you if the road is a blacktop or that there are warning road signs place at certain places.
Once again thank you all so much. Something that Carultch stated really clinched it for me with his reactance descriptors.
Bear in mind that my fluid is ideal and totally laminar. Vortices and Eddys do not occur. This is one perspective for me. It does not nor did I ever imagine it will replace the other wonderful abstraction viz. the mathematical model. The math model is so good that people use it and some never think of the physics underlying it as someone else already stated. This is only a supplemental tool and I would love to think that even one other person has benefited from my crazy excursion. My mission has never been to insult or put down anyone. I want merely to contribute my little bit.
Each other of course
Like v and i or pressure and flow in your model
nice dodge
but you get the point
what are the many senses beyond
sight
touch
hearing
taste
smell
???
the 6th sense? Lol
How can you use the math model and not tie it to the underlying physics which it represents?
nonsense
the physics of water and electricity are nothing alike
you are trying to make a hydraulic model that mathematically mimics the electrical one
absolutely nothing can be learned from it
ridiculous
you need to fold tent and admit it is a pointless excercise
you are defending an untenable position with supposed intellectual acuity for the sake of ego and arguement
it will not move the understanding forward
just the opposite
it confuses and conflates
your simplification model is more complex than the actual system
with it not only do you need to understand hydraulics but must understand electricity to draw the equivilencies!!!
now you must learn TWO subjects instead of one lol
this is not metaphysics
there is no spiritual component
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I retract what I said before. I think the biggest misunderstanding with three phase power is thinking that it behaves just like water in a pipe.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I fought the good battle.......and lost
I fought the good battle.......and lost
It appears I am being asked to surrender.
OK, I will eat crow.
I have learned a lesson. So I am strengthened by that.
Thank you all.
Happy Independence day to y'all.
Au revoir.
I fought the good battle.......and lost
It appears I am being asked to surrender.
OK, I will eat crow.
I have learned a lesson. So I am strengthened by that.
Thank you all.
Happy Independence day to y'all.
Au revoir.
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drcampbell
Senior Member
- Location
- The Motor City, Michigan USA
- Occupation
- Registered Professional Engineer
Sure. And the Internet is a series of tubes. Makes the topic perfectly clear and makes you sound well-informed & scholarly.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Analogies can be useful, but one must understand they are just analogies and that not all of the characteristics of what is being compared are necessarily going to apply. I try not to go to such analogies when describing how electricity works because of those potential misunderstandings, or without trying to make it clear that my comparison is for a very limited thing that I am trying to compare to and not a general comparison of electric and hydraulics physics.
There is a difference between an abstraction and an analogy. It is subtle. I have explained above what the first one is and I had to use an analogy to do so. At the risk of inciting the crowd I challenge one to do an explanation/definition of an abstraction without using an analogy. Of course it can be done but not with less words IMHO.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
The difference is not subtle, but obvious
an analogy compares one 'thing' (often unfamilier to most) to another different 'thing' (often more familiar to most), similar conceptually, although not physically, to explain the first
an abstract actually uses the main or key points of the actual subject 'thing' itself to give a basic, easily understood, concise description/explanation of the item
yours was an analogy, imo not suitable for such a unique and complex subject
it may be too complex for an abstraction
it is specialized and requires study
like an analogy for surgery???
you could make an abstraction but why? People already have an abstract concept
the theory of electricy is more difficult to do
there are no shortcuts
there is no suitable analogy
and the abstract would convey little: electrons being manipulated to perform work lol
I think a simulation is more appropriate for surgery. That is now (or will be) the way we will train doctors, like we train pilots.
Absolutely no disrespect intended but I just do not get this. For over 100 years the hydraulic analogy has been used in conveying the theory of DC. I respect your great contributions on this site, keep it up. Pulling me into the mud may not garner many points or at least I would like to think that. But I always stand corrected and correctable.
By the way what do you consider the mathematical model to be??? An abstraction perhaps??? Please answer this one since this is where the real understanding lies. Caution: There may be a surprise here but it is NOT a trick question.
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so we agree, the difference is not subtle but obvious...good
simulated surgery? lol
on a monkey? a cadaver? wouldn't that be ACTUAL surgery?
on a computer rather than flesh/bone?
I NEVER was exposed to the DC/hydraulic mode, and I went to a very good school
they for some odd reason chose to actually teach us the actual subject, lol
some people JUMP into the mud or begged to be pushed
actions like your pompous use of (sic) to avoid the real crux of the matter being an example
over the top literation being used to convey intellectual prowess being another
or comparing AC electrical science to hydraulics
internet brain power does not impress me
everyone want to be the smartest guy in the room, prove his intellectual superiority, human nature
hydraulics and electricity are 2 distinct sciences with the only overlaps being forced and contrived ones
you have been corrected by multiple people but do not accept it: it is, in simple parlance, 'stoopid' to make the analogy
there is a reason it's not been done before, or is a standard learning tool
a 'model' is when you simulate these equations over time by hand or computer
when you calculate amps from xfmr KVA to size protection, that is not a model or abstraction, that is an actual, real 'thing'
not a intellectual exercise or hypothesis
it can be used to actually size physical tangible equipment
there is no 'surprise', at least to those who have been schooled in the subject
the sooner you abandon this approach and pull out a textbook on the actual subject (it is well documented) the sooner you will reach an understanding
I can't see the future, but I don't see it that way
simulated surgery? lol
on a monkey? a cadaver? wouldn't that be ACTUAL surgery?
on a computer rather than flesh/bone?
but not AC, and that was your suggestion
I NEVER was exposed to the DC/hydraulic mode, and I went to a very good school
they for some odd reason chose to actually teach us the actual subject, lol
some people JUMP into the mud or begged to be pushed
actions like your pompous use of (sic) to avoid the real crux of the matter being an example
over the top literation being used to convey intellectual prowess being another
or comparing AC electrical science to hydraulics
internet brain power does not impress me
everyone want to be the smartest guy in the room, prove his intellectual superiority, human nature
hydraulics and electricity are 2 distinct sciences with the only overlaps being forced and contrived ones
you have been corrected by multiple people but do not accept it: it is, in simple parlance, 'stoopid' to make the analogy
there is a reason it's not been done before, or is a standard learning tool
the mathematical 'model' as you call it is a numerical representation of the actual system variables
a 'model' is when you simulate these equations over time by hand or computer
when you calculate amps from xfmr KVA to size protection, that is not a model or abstraction, that is an actual, real 'thing'
not a intellectual exercise or hypothesis
it can be used to actually size physical tangible equipment
there is no 'surprise', at least to those who have been schooled in the subject
the sooner you abandon this approach and pull out a textbook on the actual subject (it is well documented) the sooner you will reach an understanding
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