Converting to 50Hz

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Shaneyj

Shaneyj

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Location
Katy, Texas
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Project Engineer
We have a customer that requires a 50Hz type G receptacle in a control cabin.
All existing components (AC unit and some gen purpose recepts) are 120/240V, 60 Hz, powered by a 12kW hydraulic generator.
I have yet to get details on the reason for the type G receptacle; mainly what loads will it be powering.
A quick google search says that a type G is a 230V single pole (line, neutral, and ground) device. Can anyone confirm this?
My first thought is to look for a product that can convert our single phase 120/240V, 60 Hz to a single pole 230V 50 Hz (1-2kva) for just the receptacle required.
Does this product exist?
 
You would likely need either a generator with 50Hz output or solid state assembly (an inverter) designed to output or is able to be adjusted to output 50 Hz.
 
I only know two ways to start with 60 HZ and get 50 HZ. One is a motor generator (60 HZ motor drives a 50 HZ generator). Not likely to be suitable for your application. The other is an electronic "converter" (I don't know its real name). It would function similar to a UPS. It takes in 60 HZ at whatever voltage you want. It converts it to DC, and may or may not have a battery backup to limit interruption of power. Then it electronically inverts the DC power to 50 HZ at whatever voltage you need.
 
charlie b said:
I only know two ways to start with 60 HZ and get 50 HZ. One is a motor generator (60 HZ motor drives a 50 HZ generator). Not likely to be suitable for your application. The other is an electronic "converter" (I don't know its real name). It would function similar to a UPS. It takes in 60 HZ at whatever voltage you want. It converts it to DC, and may or may not have a battery backup to limit interruption of power. Then it electronically inverts the DC power to 50 HZ at whatever voltage you need.
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Maybe more for OP's benefit than yours:
The "inverter" I mentioned is basically the portion of what you described that takes DC (at basically any voltage) and uses solid state components to create an output that behaves like an AC voltage wave. Cheaply designed ones may not have a very good sine wave but may be fine for some loads and some conditions. More expensive ones will have more components that are there to focus on making more of a true sine wave for the output.

Common items like this are as you mentioned a UPS as well as units designed to convert solar DC output to AC, or to take any general DC source and make AC available, like in automobiles, RV's and such. Most them likely are designed to output at 60 Hz and probably have no simple means to adjust that output frequency so you likely need to look harder to find one for 50 Hz.
 
Thanks for the responses. A rotary style would not work for our design requirements, but I have found a few SS devices that will work. They are bulky and expensive.
 
You might ask what this circuit will be used for. It's possible that the application is insensitive to minor frequency variations and 60 Hz would be perfectly suitable.
 
drcampbell said:
You might ask what this circuit will be used for. It's possible that the application is insensitive to minor frequency variations and 60 Hz would be perfectly suitable.
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That question is in the ether... but I still need a solution for the 230V single pole aspect of the type G recept. The couple of devices I found transformed frequency as well as voltage to output the higher line to gnd voltage associated with this type of receptacle.
 
230V utilization voltage is well within tolerance of a 240V supply. You should use a 1:1 transformer, set up to have one leg on the output grounded, to supply a grounded neutral to the correct pin on the receptacle. Some appliances may expect a grounded neutral, instead of the two hot legs. Type G is a"British" plug; it's likely for the tea kettle, which won't care a whit about frequency.

For reference, this is done all the time on cruise ships on guest cabins. 120V "Edison" and 230V Schuko receptacles are provided, but everything operates at 60Hz, since that's the speed the alternators turn at. I can't think of a modern load that actually cares about frequency these days. Pratically everything has a switchmode power supply. Larger motors will care of course, but at 1-2KVA, you're not running anything large.


SceneryDriver
 
SceneryDriver said:
230V utilization voltage is well within tolerance of a 240V supply. You should use a 1:1 transformer, set up to have one leg on the output grounded, to supply a grounded neutral to the correct pin on the receptacle. Some appliances may expect a grounded neutral, instead of the two hot legs. Type G is a"British" plug; it's likely for the tea kettle, which won't care a whit about frequency.

For reference, this is done all the time on cruise ships on guest cabins. 120V "Edison" and 230V Schuko receptacles are provided, but everything operates at 60Hz, since that's the speed the alternators turn at. I can't think of a modern load that actually cares about frequency these days. Pratically everything has a switchmode power supply. Larger motors will care of course, but at 1-2KVA, you're not running anything large.


SceneryDriver
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Many small household appliance motors have a universal motor and frequency won't matter, many probably even would run fine if you supplied them with DC.

It is induction motors that may have an issue if not supplied with proper frequency.
 
1) As has been said, find out exactly WHAT they need this for, it makes a big difference in how you approach it. If Hz is important, you will need the frequency inverter. Not only will it be bulky and expensive, add hot! It will require fan forced ventilation of the enclosure.

2) Do you need to provide a UL508A label on the panel? If so, this is not going to be possible with an IEC receptacle on/in the panel. Give him a UL listed NEMA 5-15 receptacle and let him get an adapter, like the kind you get at a travel store (assuming Hz turns out not to be an issue).
 
Shaneyj said:
We have a customer that requires a 50Hz type G receptacle in a control cabin.
All existing components (AC unit and some gen purpose recepts) are 120/240V, 60 Hz, powered by a 12kW hydraulic generator.
I have yet to get details on the reason for the type G receptacle; mainly what loads will it be powering.
A quick google search says that a type G is a 230V single pole (line, neutral, and ground) device. Can anyone confirm this?
My first thought is to look for a product that can convert our single phase 120/240V, 60 Hz to a single pole 230V 50 Hz (1-2kva) for just the receptacle required.
Does this product exist?
Click to expand...

Type G Plug and receptacle

Type G Electrical Outlet and Electrical Receptacle

Type G Electrical Outlet Guide, including information on the electrical adapter plug, and a list of countries that use the Type G Electrical Outlet and Electric
electricaloutlet.org

World plugs | IEC

www.iec.ch www.iec.ch

I imagine the piece of equipment/appliance has a captive power cord and G plug.

Getting 230V Hot, neutral, ground, is easy as others have said using a transformer. But the 50Hz as others have said is another thing. PS Audio makes regenerators you might check them out. They are not cheap though. What's the Va rating of the piece of equipment?

You need to find out exactly what the equipment/appliance is. If it doesn't use the 50Hz for an internal clock or uses a AC synchronous motor it may not need to be 50 HZ. 50Hz power transformers will work just fine on 60Hz.

Like I said find out what the equipment is. Contact the manufacturer. It may work fine on 60Hz.
 
Jraef said:
1) As has been said, find out exactly WHAT they need this for, it makes a big difference in how you approach it. If Hz is important, you will need the frequency inverter. Not only will it be bulky and expensive, add hot! It will require fan forced ventilation of the enclosure.
Click to expand...
At 2kVA, I'd be surprised at FV.
 
SceneryDriver said:
230V utilization voltage is well within tolerance of a 240V supply. You should use a 1:1 transformer, set up to have one leg on the output grounded, to supply a grounded neutral to the correct pin on the receptacle. Some appliances may expect a grounded neutral, instead of the two hot legs. Type G is a"British" plug; it's likely for the tea kettle, which won't care a whit about frequency.

For reference, this is done all the time on cruise ships on guest cabins. 120V "Edison" and 230V Schuko receptacles are provided, but everything operates at 60Hz, since that's the speed the alternators turn at. I can't think of a modern load that actually cares about frequency these days. Pratically everything has a switchmode power supply. Larger motors will care of course, but at 1-2KVA, you're not running anything large.


SceneryDriver
Click to expand...

Good reply. In fact with a Schuko I wouldn't worry about 120-0-120 since they are none polarized to begin with. UK plugs on the other hand have a fused cord cap and as such 0-230 is more appropriate.

To the OP: I'm with the others. Unless 50Hz is 100% necessary I'd hit it with 60Hz and not think twice. You'd be surprised how many 50Hz appliances run on 60Hz without known issue.
 
Thank you to all for the input.
From what our sales guy says, it is only for cell phone chargers and laptops, but he is awaiting response from customer.
If this is the case, we will label the type G receptacle stating its voltage (240V L-L) and frequency (60Hz) and be done with it.
 
Shaneyj said:
Thank you to all for the input.
From what our sales guy says, it is only for cell phone chargers and laptops, but he is awaiting response from customer.
If this is the case, we will label the type G receptacle stating its voltage (240V L-L) and frequency (60Hz) and be done with it.
Click to expand...

Every charger like you mention that I have seen (including those belonging to colleagues from Europe and Asia) are rated for 100-240V, 50/60HZ.

I question whether you need to do anything at all.
 
retirede said:
Every charger like you mention that I have seen (including those belonging to colleagues from Europe and Asia) are rated for 100-240V, 50/60HZ.

I question whether you need to do anything at all.
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That was my point. They requested a type G receptacle. We would just supply it with our generator voltage/frequency and label is as such.
 
Shaneyj said:
From what our sales guy says, it is only for cell phone chargers and laptops...
Click to expand...

Cell phone chargers??? Chargers that plug into our 120V receptacles are a dime a dozen. Ask any 10 year old kid who probably has lost more than they have. So now you have somebody that wants to have a British receptacle and a 240V circuit installed so they can use the charger that came with the phone???

Was it you, Mbrooke who installed that kind of receptacle in your house? What kind of box did it use? Nothing from here.

Really, now that you told us what the customer wants the receptacle for and wanting 50Hz/240, I'm wondering where the competence is here. Just tell him there is absolutely NO reason to need it for cell phone chargers (go to Walmart and buy new ones) and laptop wall warts can be easily had in the US configuration (or use a travel adapter).

Geeze.

-Hal
 
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hbiss said:
Cell phone chargers??? Chargers that plug into our 120V receptacles are a dime a dozen. Ask any 10 year old kid who probably has lost more than they have. So now you have somebody that wants to have a British receptacle and a 240V circuit installed so they can use the charger that came with the phone???

Was it you, Mbrooke who installed that kind of receptacle in your house? What kind of box did it use? Nothing from here.

Really, now that you told us what the customer wants the receptacle for and wanting 50Hz/240, I'm wondering where the competence is here. Just tell him there is absolutely NO reason to need it for cell phone chargers (go to Walmart and buy new ones) and laptop wall warts can be easily had in the US configuration (or use a travel adapter).

Geeze.

-Hal
Click to expand...
The customer is in Kuwait. Obvious and apparent, he wants to use his existing plugs.
 
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