Looking for momentary dry contact timer

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brantmacga

brantmacga

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Georgia
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Former Child
I’m looking for an astronomical timer with momentary dry contacts; at least six channels.

I have a client we did a house for awhile back with a Control4 system; the house is for sale, and he said last week a surge took out most of the Control4 system. He wants me to de-install all of the equipment. I had a comprehensive surge protection system on the electrical, but I’m guessing it came through the networking side, which I did not do. That was the LV contractor.

One of the things it controlled was to open the garage doors every morning, and close a screen door over the opening. It did the reverse every evening. He wants to keep this functionality.

So I need a dry contact closure on each door opener connected to a timer. So at 6:30AM every day, it needs to pulse the garage door to open and then pulse the screen doors to close. And every evening do the same in reverse.

Any ideas? Here’s a pic of the garage to explain the setup

c1fd01c184be1bfaedcf465d4e722ef3.jpg



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I know this makes it more complicated, but you could use one shot timers on the output of an astronomical clock, which could feed a row of relays.

Otherwise, are you any good at a PLC programming? A smart relay could do this really easily.
 
You mentioned six channels. As in six different events? What about a water-sprinkler controller?

On the other hand, if you only need two events per day, even a simple X10 setup would work well.

Are you looking to hard-wire a link to every opener, or would you prefer something wireless?
 
LarryFine said:
You mentioned six channels. As in six different events? What about a water-sprinkler controller?

On the other hand, if you only need two events per day, even a simple X10 setup would work well.

Are you looking to hard-wire a link to every opener, or would you prefer something wireless?
Click to expand...

Hard wired would be easier. I have a wall enclosure in the mechanical room with all of the opener wiring where we intercepted for the control4 relays. He wants it as simple as possible. Basically I intercept there to create a button push with a momentary relay.


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Jolted said:
I know this makes it more complicated, but you could use one shot timers on the output of an astronomical clock, which could feed a row of relays.

Otherwise, are you any good at a PLC programming? A smart relay could do this really easily.
Click to expand...

If I did a one shot timer, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d have to do two on-off events, correct?

So to open in the morning, I’d apply voltage to the one shot at 6:30 and then turn it back off at say 6:31... have the one shot on a 1-sec pulse? And then to close do the same thing again at night ?
And just use a two-channel time clock controller two sets of three relays; one for each overhead door, one for each screen door.

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Maybe you can use something like this and a standard or astronomical programmable in-wall timer. Set up so your timer turns on in the morning for whatever its minimum duration is, triggering your opener relays and this timer module simultaneously, and use the output of this module to turn the output of your timer off 1/2 second later. It will then reset and stay off after your timer tells it to, and wait for the next on command.

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The idea is to not trigger your openers continuously, as if someone was holding the button for 12 hours.
 
A timer such as an Intermatic brand is simple and readily available and easy to understand but they have just a few outputs.

Connect THAT dry contact to control the coil of a standard octal control relay. Those generally only have three outputs so you need two. Or if you get an industrial control relay that has adder decks available you can add the remaining three outputs on top although it is far more expensive than just running two octal relays with three outputs (14 pin relays) in parallel.

Also this setup will be annoying. It will hold the output however long the Intermatic relay adjusts like 15 minute increments. If you get a timer on/off relay and put that between the Intermatic and the multiplier relays you can adjust the pulse down to as short as you want such as one second. Everything can go on a short piece of DIN rail and take up little space.

The PLC can duplicate your entire old control system very inexpensively but to adjust the clock you already require a screen which pushes the price tag to hundreds of dollars, no longer $99.
 
This issue with using a PLC is that it becomes something a homeowner can’t adjust.


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brantmacga said:
This issue with using a PLC is that it becomes something a homeowner can’t adjust.


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Click to expand...

Well technically they could but not easily. Another hundred and change can add a HMI to my $145 plc.

Maybe I am misinterpreting this, but I thought the garage doors have to open then the screens come down, then reverse order at the end of the day. Is there any interference between the door and the screen where there would be a problem if it happened out of sequence or at the same time?

To do the sequence right you need two time clocks (or a single time clock with two outputs who's time can be set independently) four one shot relays, two additional time delay relays, and four 3 pole relays.

OPEN: timer(open) -> gdo one shot+gdo3p relay -> delay relay ->screen one shot+screen3p relay
CLOSE: timer(close) ->screen one shot2+screen3p relay2 - >delay relay2 ->gdo one shot2+gdo3p relay2

By the time all that is bought, it would probably be the same $250+ as the cheap plc and hmi (not counting programming)
 
brantmacga said:
If I did a one shot timer, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d have to do two on-off events, correct?

So to open in the morning, I’d apply voltage to the one shot at 6:30 and then turn it back off at say 6:31... have the one shot on a 1-sec pulse? And then to close do the same thing again at night ?
And just use a two-channel time clock controller two sets of three relays; one for each overhead door, one for each screen door.

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Click to expand...

Yes, essentially. A one shot timer pulses every time it’s input goes high, then stops until it’s input goes low, then high again.

You could use a one shot for the overhead doors and one for the screens. Use a set of relays for more poles as Paul described above.

Every time you set up an on/off event in the clock, the timer will pulse, the relays will fire and the doors/screens will change state.
 
brantmacga said:
If I did a one shot timer, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d have to do two on-off events, correct?

So to open in the morning, I’d apply voltage to the one shot at 6:30 and then turn it back off at say 6:31... have the one shot on a 1-sec pulse? And then to close do the same thing again at night ?
And just use a two-channel time clock controller two sets of three relays; one for each overhead door, one for each screen door.

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Click to expand...

See my post above, the simple relay set up does not allow for reversing the order of operation to close.
 
Jolted said:
Yes, essentially. A one shot timer pulses every time it’s input goes high, then stops until it’s input goes low, then high again.

You could use a one shot for the overhead doors and one for the screens. Use a set of relays for more poles as Paul described above.

Every time you set up an on/off event in the clock, the timer will pulse, the relays will fire and the doors/screens will change state.
Click to expand...

If you use this scheme you might want to consider what happens if the power is not on when the timer is supposed to be doing it's oneshot ( you will get the opposite action during the next cycle)
 
milldrone said:
If you use this scheme you might want to consider what happens if the power is not on when the timer is supposed to be doing it's oneshot ( you will get the opposite action during the next cycle)
Click to expand...

Good point! With the PLC you could easily put alarm contacts on the doors to validate door position before commanding them to move.
 
Okay, Brant, we need a little more info. Do you only need a single momentary contact closure twice daily, or do you need contact A and then contact B in the morning and contact B and then contact A in the evening?
 
This discussion reminds me of the episode of The Big Bang Theory where the gang sees how complicated they can make the assembly of Penny's new TV stand.
 
I’ve used the Tork E101B for controlling mechanically held contractors for lighting. Sounds somewhat the same as your need...???
it has an option in programming held contact or momentary of I think one second...
I don’t think I paid over $100 for it.
 
Thought of something else: If a door gets manually operated within the door operator cycle time before timed operations, that door will then be out of sync with open/close. HO could push the button again to normalize everything provided no mechanical interference between door and screen. PLC with mag switches monitoring door position could make it foolproof.
 
Todd0x1 said:
Thought of something else: If a door gets manually operated within the door operator cycle time before timed operations, that door will then be out of sync with open/close. HO could push the button again to normalize everything provided no mechanical interference between door and screen. PLC with mag switches monitoring door position could make it foolproof.
Click to expand...

You beat me to it, I was about to post the same thing! The previous system probably had that function.
 
Y’all have brought up good points I did not consider. After thinking this over, this install is going to be over-complicated. I’m going to recommend that if he wants to keep this functionality to go back with the base model CA-1 Control4 controller. It makes more sense to do that because the door locks and HVAC is tied to it as well. He’s pretty insistent I take the lighting & A/V out though.

Here’s a link to the house .... this was a fun project, and I think the 5th or 6th house I’ve done for this customer. Starting the next one in a couple of months.

www.zillow.com

5024 Diamond Dr #5018, Lake Park, GA 31636 | MLS #122233 | Zillow

For sale: $675,000. GORGEOUS 4 BED 3 FULL BATH / 2 HALF BATH WATERFRONT HOME WITH ALL THE EXTRAS! LISTED UNDER APPRAISED VALUE! The Owners SPARED NO EXPENSE! Waterfront? Got it! Putting Green? Got it! Golf Simulator? Got it! Exercise Room? Got it! 80x20 Screened Porch with outdoor kitchen? Got...
www.zillow.com www.zillow.com


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