Swimming Pool ? Again

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Buck Parrish

Buck Parrish

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NC & IN
I have a customer that has ran a panel feeder for a pool panel to a location where he is to build a new inground pool. He ran two hots and a neutral to the pool panel. He used #2 URD AL three wire.
I told him I can not use that. It has to be 4 wires, insulated copper ground and in conduit.
He ask and now I'm asking you. If he was to call the power company to set a new meter. They would run URD with no conduit, too. What is the safety difference if the utility runs a service to that location? Vs. the way he did it? That's the question.
This county has NO inspections, none. No License requirement either.
 
Buck what you are asking is the difference between a new service and a feeder. Of course the code cannot address what the power company does and sure there could be an issue if you loose a neutral but if you remember what happened in Raleigh a few years ago you may think it a good idea to run the ground. If it was a service for the pool only then I would ask the power company what it would take to put the wire in conduit... It may be worth the price of loosing a neutral and having a mess
 
Buck Parrish said:
I have a customer that has ran a panel feeder for a pool panel to a location where he is to build a new inground pool. He ran two hots and a neutral to the pool panel. He used #2 URD AL three wire.
I told him I can not use that. It has to be 4 wires, insulated copper ground and in conduit.
He ask and now I'm asking you. If he was to call the power company to set a new meter. They would run URD with no conduit, too. What is the safety difference if the utility runs a service to that location? Vs. the way he did it? That's the question.
This county has NO inspections, none. No License requirement either.
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I don't think you know what the power company would do if they knew about the swimming pool. I don't think the question is legitimate because we don't know.

If the neutral to the pool feeder is grounded at that panel you create parallel paths back to the transformer from the neutral loads in that panel. If you pull the ground wire then you don't ground the neutral so that parallel path is not created at the pool panel (but still remains at the main panel).

Would you GFCI protect the feeder to the panel (that would limit you to 50-amps I think)?

ETA: Personally, I would stay away from this one.
 
I just went to look at the job. He had called the supply house and told them he was installing a pool panel. They're the ones that gave him #2 URD AL.
I told him the URD would have to come out. You have to have an insulated copper ground in conduit.
 
But also I found their is a high voltage line buried about 30 feet from the edge of the concrete deck. Their is a transformer about 75 feet away. I'm thinking it's likely 7200 volts. I'm not positive but I'd be willing to bet money it's not in conduit.
 
Buck Parrish said:
But also I found their is a high voltage line buried about 30 feet from the edge of the concrete deck. Their is a transformer about 75 feet away. I'm thinking it's likely 7200 volts. I'm not positive but I'd be willing to bet money it's not in conduit.
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Better make sure that equipotential bonding grid is put together well. :)
 
Buck Parrish said:
But also I found their is a high voltage line buried about 30 feet from the edge of the concrete deck. Their is a transformer about 75 feet away. I'm thinking it's likely 7200 volts. I'm not positive but I'd be willing to bet money it's not in conduit.
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If it’s jacketed concentric neutral cable it’s real close to being in conduit.
the old concentric neutral cable was direct buried and had real good ground contact on the exposed neutral.
We install it in pvc conduit now, so Jacketed concentric neutral cable could be seen as concentric neutral cable in conduit(pvc jacket) in conduit.(pvc pipe)
 
Hv&Lv said:
If it’s jacketed concentric neutral cable it’s real close to being in conduit.
the old concentric neutral cable was direct buried and had real good ground contact on the exposed neutral.
We install it in pvc conduit now, so Jacketed concentric neutral cable could be seen as concentric neutral cable in conduit(pvc jacket) in conduit.(pvc pipe)
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Thanks , It looks pretty old. Well the house has been their for at least 25 years. The transformer is slanted like one end is sinking faster then the other.
Should I find out what type of cable the power company used?
This is a very small rural power company..
I just seen the power company hook to a brand new building with a 400 amp service with one 200 disconnect outside and one inside. 230.72 (a) violation
 
Buck Parrish said:
Thanks , It looks pretty old. Well the house has been their for at least 25 years. The transformer is slanted like one end is sinking faster then the other.
Should I find out what type of cable the power company used?
This is a very small rural power company..
I just seen the power company hook to a brand new building with a 400 amp service with one 200 disconnect outside and one inside. 230.72 (a) violation
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If it’s been there at least 25 years it’s probably jacketed cable. 50 years I would say CN cable.

I had a situation where the pool had 60V from the probe sticking in the water and the other probe against the ladder. Turns out the CN cable neutral had disintegrated to such a degree that there was really no continuity on the neutral cable from one transformer to the next. We had to run a neutral on top of the ground for a month or two. That crap was replaced pretty fast... too much liability.

the service the PoCo connected to... I would say that’s on the inspector and the electrician. We connect to many that aren’t inspected yet but never actually turn the power on..
 
Yep, It's the neutral that I'm worried about. I'll put a call in to the poco office tomorrow. Just to get their thoughts on it.

This county has no inspections / inspectors
 
Hv&Lv said:
If it’s PoCo owned cable your looking in the wrong book..
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680.9 (A) is referring to poco owned cables. I think it's because of 20 foot long aluminum pool cleaning poles nets etc...
Also 680 refers to no power under a pool unless it's for pool equipment. So , you're right it doesn't say any thing about you're lines.
So do you know how far a 7200 volt line should be away from a pool ?
I'll imagine Miami Fl. or LA has this kind of set ups all over the place.
 
This is what is stated for underground wiring.

680.11 Underground Wiring Location. Underground wiring
shall be permitted where installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate
metal conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, reinforced
thermosetting resin conduit, or Type MC cable, suitable
for the conditions subject to that location. Underground wiring
shall not be permitted under the pool unless this wiring is
necessary to supply pool equipment permitted by this article.
Minimum cover depths shall be as given in Table 300.5 .
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