SSDriver
Senior Member
- Location
- California
- Occupation
- Electrician
On / Off. However that disconnect would most likely be above a counter and not have 3' of clear space in front of it????
Dishwasher GFCI protection-disconnect means
- Thread starter goldstar
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
The discussion this far was about dead front GFCIs that fit in a handy box, bit GFCI breakers. GFCI breakers would qualify as a disconnect device without question. The issue in this thread is if the LOCAL disconnect required for a HARD WIRED dishwasher can be a dead front GFCI unit in the wall nearby.
I am in the NO camp by the way, based on the same arguments put forth by member Golddigger in the referenced thread above. The DF GFCI cannot be operated without power on it and there is no way to know if it is on or off, and no way to lock it. It may qualify as a device capable of disconnecting under load, but is not a "disconnect" in the sense of providing for a SAFE way to positively de-energize a circuit that you are going to work on, which is the REASON for requiring a disconnect for hard wired equipment.
All of this wrangling is unnecessary in my opinion, considering that the SIMPLEST solution is to not use the Dead Front GFCI, just use a receptacle type and put a plug on the DW. Making it hard wired adds an unnecessary step and confusion.
Last edited:
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Per the UL Guide Information Sheet for GFCIs, if they have buttons marked "on" and "off" they are also listed as disconnects/motor controllers.
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
How does that fit with the concerns Golddigger/Jraef mentioned in the previous post? If they are unpowered, is it guaranteed that pressing the "Off/Test" button will leave the load side disconnected when power is restored?
Cheers, Wayne
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
Yes, but is a magnetic motor starter useable as a disconnect? I can put an On-Off button on the over, so would that make it qualify?
No, because the "test" is if it is specifically listed in 430.109. 110.58 says that if there is a motor involved, the "disconnecting means" must meet all applicable sections of Article 430. Then 422.31 (C) (for permanently connected appliances over 1/8HP) specifically calls out 430.109 as the definition of a disconnect means for a motor. A Dead Front GFCI is not one of those listed, at least not as of the 2017 Code.
So now if you use the DF GFCI as the GFCI device that is required, and it is hard wired, you must add ANOTHER device to the circuit that qualifies under 430.109 as a disconnecting means. Not worth it, just use a plug.
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
Maybe, but that does not make them suitable as a disconnect per 430.109.
That UL file number is the same for Soft Starters, which are NOT suitable to use as a disconnecting device.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
This can't happen on newer GFCIs, but it the ouput hot and N are swapped, then when the GFCI trips the N opens and the hot is hot.
This is why on portable GFCIs they are two pole IE both the hot and N are switched.
A GFCI kind of meets the definition of a disconnecting means..." A device or group of devices..."
But in 422.31 is the requirement for disconnecting means, permanently connected appliances, and a GFCI does not meet that requirement
This is why on portable GFCIs they are two pole IE both the hot and N are switched.
A GFCI kind of meets the definition of a disconnecting means..." A device or group of devices..."
But in 422.31 is the requirement for disconnecting means, permanently connected appliances, and a GFCI does not meet that requirement
mopowr steve
Senior Member
- Location
- NW Ohio
- Occupation
- Electrical contractor
Just throwing this out there,
But IIRC if the power to the deadfront GFCI was turned off, pressing the test button still releases a mechanical hold of the reset button. In which case if performing service to a hardwired dishwasher as long as the test “off” button were pressed it wouldn’t matter if the breaker feeding the circuit was ever turned off or left on.
At least I think this is the case with gfci’s since they were required to not be able to reset if they failed.
But IIRC if the power to the deadfront GFCI was turned off, pressing the test button still releases a mechanical hold of the reset button. In which case if performing service to a hardwired dishwasher as long as the test “off” button were pressed it wouldn’t matter if the breaker feeding the circuit was ever turned off or left on.
At least I think this is the case with gfci’s since they were required to not be able to reset if they failed.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Yes they do. Discussion is about "blank face" GFCI's that mount in a device box being used as a "disconnecting means" within sight of an appliance.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I question that.
First how does the device know polarity is reversed when it needs no ground reference to function? They will not reset if line and load conductors are swapped but not for polarity reversal AFAIK.
Second AFAIK GFCI receptacles and the similar dead front devices open both poles when they trip, even older models did this. GFCI breakers may not open the neutral, I haven't checked this out but guessing they don't, but not so easy to reverse polarity with those unless you swap a grounded and ungrounded lead supplying the panelboard.
SSDriver
Senior Member
- Location
- California
- Occupation
- Electrician
I had one in my van. The dead front says on it ON/OFF and its for GFCI protection, motor controller, and switch. The instructions says it is rated for up to 1HP motor as well. I hooked it up to a cord and tested it out (not the safest test, but it was plugged into another GFCI for protection). If it is in the ON position and you remove power, hit the off button, it will turn off . If you restore power it is still in the OFF position. I did verify with a meter that it works as it should.
SSDriver
Senior Member
- Location
- California
- Occupation
- Electrician
In my video I said I "tripped" it while it was unplugged. I should correct myself before someone else does. I pressed the off button while it was unplugged. lol
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Did it open the contacts when you pressed "off" while not powered? If it is same working components as a GFCI receptacle (just no receptacles) I doubt it will. And the modern ones will not "set" unless pressing the reset (on) button while powered, as long as line and load conductors are landed at proper terminals, this is because of how they are designed to lock out on a line/load miswiring incident.
SSDriver
Senior Member
- Location
- California
- Occupation
- Electrician
Yes it opened the contacts when I pressed the Off button while not powered. Absolutely no power on the load side when I powered it back up after pressing the OFF button while not powered. It functions exactly like a switch would with the power removed, only difference is that it must have power applied to the line side to close the contacts. You do not need power to open the contacts.
SSDriver
Senior Member
- Location
- California
- Occupation
- Electrician
I should add, you can actually feel it and hear it click when you press off (with or with out power on the line side. I decided to try two other tests and got interesting results.
Additional Test 1: Reversed the Hot and Neutral on the Line side.(hot on neutral, neutral on hot)
Results: GFCI still works as it should and light functions properly. Switch still turns off load with or without power applied. GFCI trips with my GFCI tester.
Additional Test 2: Reversed Line and Load. (Applied power to load instead of Line),
Results: GFCI will show a green light at the bottom with contacts open (in the off/tripped position). It will not reset, and will not put power to the line side. No red lights.
So it seems the controls are not polarity specific (I would not do this on a real install). The green light only checks for power on the load terminals and doesn't care if the contacts are open or closed.
Additional Test 1: Reversed the Hot and Neutral on the Line side.(hot on neutral, neutral on hot)
Results: GFCI still works as it should and light functions properly. Switch still turns off load with or without power applied. GFCI trips with my GFCI tester.
Additional Test 2: Reversed Line and Load. (Applied power to load instead of Line),
Results: GFCI will show a green light at the bottom with contacts open (in the off/tripped position). It will not reset, and will not put power to the line side. No red lights.
So it seems the controls are not polarity specific (I would not do this on a real install). The green light only checks for power on the load terminals and doesn't care if the contacts are open or closed.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
If you think about it, polarity as well as line/load reversal really doesn't matter when there is no receptacle on the face of it.
SSDriver
Senior Member
- Location
- California
- Occupation
- Electrician
Here is the contacts opening with no power on line side. It works the same when I have power applied to the line side.
SSDriver
Senior Member
- Location
- California
- Occupation
- Electrician
That does make sense, I was curious about a few things and figured I would test it out while I still had everything on the counter.
ramsy
NoFixNoPay Electric
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
The Leviton blank AFCI/GFCI switch under sink, next to cabinet door, could solve all Dishwasher configurations. Unfortunately It may not be available for lack of demand.
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