Dishwasher GFCI protection-disconnect means

[winnie]

Did it open the contacts when you pressed "off" while not powered? If it is same working components as a GFCI receptacle (just no receptacles) I doubt it will.

I think that the way the 'test' and 'reset' buttons work has changed, but cannot find documentation.

Originally the 'test' button would trigger simulated fault current to trip the device. Of course the device would need to be powered for this to work.

Here is a link to a modern GFCI chip. https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/a...94809&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

At power-up and every 3 seconds the unit runs simulated fault current, and checks that it is detected.

I think the 'test' button in some GFCIs may be a simple mechanical off (unlike original designs, and not what the name suggests).

The 'test' then occurs during the reset sequence.

-Jon

 

[kwired]

I think that the way the 'test' and 'reset' buttons work has changed, but cannot find documentation.

Originally the 'test' button would trigger simulated fault current to trip the device. Of course the device would need to be powered for this to work.

Here is a link to a modern GFCI chip. https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/afe3010.pdf?ts=1606925994809&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

At power-up and every 3 seconds the unit runs simulated fault current, and checks that it is detected.

I think the 'test' button in some GFCIs may be a simple mechanical off (unlike original designs, and not what the name suggests).

The 'test' then occurs during the reset sequence.

-Jon

I mostly use P&S devices, their GFCI receptacles still need power to trip and need power to reset. The reset button will mechanically latch if you press it while unpowered, but will pop back out when power is applied. It must be powered (to the line side terminals) before it will stay latched in when resetting. It won't drop out during a power failure, just must be powered when resetting.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I mostly use P&S devices, their GFCI receptacles still need power to trip and need power to reset. The reset button will mechanically latch if you press it while unpowered, but will pop back out when power is applied. It must be powered (to the line side terminals) before it will stay latched in when resetting. It won't drop out during a power failure, just must be powered when resetting.

I believe that is related to the self testing requirements. Where the GFCI has been off, or has tripped, the standard does not permit a reset without the device going through its self testing sequence.

 

[kwired]

I believe that is related to the self testing requirements. Where the GFCI has been off, or has tripped, the standard does not permit a reset without the device going through its self testing sequence.

Pretty sure I read what is going on here but don't remember all the details, it has to do with line/load reversal lockout feature. Some sort of feature that latches it when resetting, but must be powered when resetting or it won't latch. If you reset while not powered up, button will stay in but won't fully latch and pops back out when powered up. They are shipped in that state when new and always trip first time you power them up.

If fully set they stay that way during periods of not being powered. In fact you can set them, remove power, then swap line and load and it won't trip unless there is a ground fault or you press the test button, but it won't reset afterward until line/load is connected correctly.

 

[goldstar]

I just want to let you all know that I posed this question to the NJ DCA Code Assistance Unit and got the response shown below. When making the inquiry I also cited this thread.

In response to your inquiry regarding dead face GFCI's being used as a disconnect for a hardwired dishwasher, I first want to direct you to Article 422.31(C) Motor-Operated Appliances Rated over 1/8 HP. "....the disconnecting means shall be within sight from the appliance or be capable of being locked in the open position in compliance with 11.25."

"Disconnecting means" is defined in the NEC as "A device, or group of devices or other means by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from their source of supply." Although a dead front GFCI will most certainly meet this criterion, I would ask you to look to the definition of a GFCI which states, "A device intended for the protection of personnel....." Its intent is for personnel protection and not disconnecting means.

It would accomplish what the code requires, but unless its listed as a disconnecting means, it does not meet compliance with 422.31(C).

Further questions, please call.


Code Assistance/Development Unit
NJ Dept. of Community Affairs
Division of Codes and Standards
101 S. Broad St.
PO Box 802
Trenton, NJ 08625
(609) 984-7609 (phone)
(609) 633-6729 (fax)
www.nj.gov/dca/divisions/codes

Please be advised, all responses to inquiries are issued under N.J.A.C. 5:23-3.9, Interpretations and opinions.

 

[goldstar]

Just use a breaker lock

Here's the problem I have with breaker locks Dennis - YOU know how to operate the breaker with the lock on it and I know how to operate it but the single woman parent with three kids don't know how to operate it if the breaker trips it's either a long phone call or an actual service call to reset the breaker. How much could I possibly charge the woman to reset a breaker ? It's difficult enough trying to explain how to reset a breaker without a breaker lock.

Anyway, IMHO, cord-and-plug attaching the DW and a GFCI protected receptacle in the sink cabinet I have found to be the best, safest and most convenient way to make these connections.

 

[ramsy]

I just want to let you all know that I posed this question to the NJ DCA Code Assistance Unit and got the response shown below. When making the inquiry I also cited this thread.

Nice to see an AHJ weighing in on this topic, and providing a contact for further questions.

Existing hardwired outlets for new dishwashers avoids AFCI requirements in 210.12, and 406.4(D)(4)

AHJ's listed-disconnect concern was addressed by the Don in #26, if not by certain destruction of GFCI's not listed for inductive kick back of motor disconnect from Kitchen and bath appliances

 

[kwired]

I just want to let you all know that I posed this question to the NJ DCA Code Assistance Unit and got the response shown below. When making the inquiry I also cited this thread.

Per their reply a GFCI breaker is not acceptable disconnect either, oh wait it is providing more than just personnel protection.

This thread has shown that some but not necessarily all those dead front devices may be acceptable and they are not willing to take off their blinders when reading about them.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here's the problem I have with breaker locks Dennis - YOU know how to operate the breaker with the lock on it and I know how to operate it but the single woman parent with three kids don't know how to operate it if the breaker trips it's either a long phone call or an actual service call to reset the breaker. How much could I possibly charge the woman to reset a breaker ?

Generally if it does trip the breaker then IMO a service [person may be needed anyway. We do have an amendment which has deleted the gfci requirement so that does make it easier for us.

 

[ramsy]

Maybe, but that does not make them suitable as a disconnect per 430.109.

That UL file number is the same for Soft Starters, which are NOT suitable to use as a disconnecting device.

North American dishwashers are single pole 120 V appliances. Per 430.109 disconnects only need to open the single ungrounded conductor, but a listed GFCI with factory "On & Off" indicator exceeds that requirement by disconnecting both conductors.

Therefore, where single-phase loads are concerned, UL file numbers for starters and controllers are referring to disconnects.

 

[ramsy]

About infallible AHJ's

AHJ's may offer contact info., but are not required to justify their code interpretation before demanding correction.

Like the mortgage industry relies on home inspectors to call in qualified persons for detrimental reliance, the building-permit process rely on AHJ inspectors to bring contractor GL policies to bear on the corrections.

In both cases banks & AHJ's are indemnified. Any burden of casualty claim is litigated between GL policies, errors & omissions insurance, and ignoramus property owners who hire unqualified persons.

Nit picking inspectors were traditionally good for contractors. AHJ's reciprocated some nit-picking corrections back to contractors for pulling permits. Right or wrong proper contracts use change-order procedures to enforce the extra payments.

 

[kwired]

About infallible AHJ's

AHJ's may offer contact info., but are not required to justify their code interpretation before demanding correction.

Like the mortgage industry relies on home inspectors to call in qualified persons for detrimental reliance, the building-permit process rely on AHJ inspectors to bring contractor GL policies to bear on the corrections.

In both cases banks & AHJ's are indemnified. Any burden of casualty claim is litigated between GL policies, errors & omissions insurance, and ignoramus property owners who hire unqualified persons.

Nit picking inspectors were traditionally good for contractors. AHJ's reciprocated some nit-picking corrections back to contractors for pulling permits. Right or wrong proper contracts use change-order procedures to enforce the extra payments.

Not how it works here. If they issue a correction notice they must state on the notice what code section or other state law where amended is in violation. They may not necessarily give any detailed explanation on that notice, but should need to be able to validate why they believe it is a violation if you question it. "Because I said so" is not valid justification.

 

[ramsy]

.."Because I said so" is not valid justification.

Our local inspectors can reference municipal & state adopted versions of building codes on their corrections as well.

However, when their interpretation per 90.4 is disputed, complying with "Because I said so" can cost less than attempts at appeals.

 

[ramsy]

Home inspectors not given authority for interpretation per 90.4, tend to error on the side of caution, until a contractor's GL policy can assume the brunt of Joint & Several liability.

 

[kwired]

Our local inspectors can reference municipal & state adopted versions of building codes on their corrections as well.

However, when their interpretation per 90.4 is disputed, complying with "Because I said so" can cost less than attempts at appeals.

But you live in the great Republic of California, but don't worry we are catching up a little around here. "Not in my backyard" has made many laws we never dreamed of having around here years ago.

 

[curt swartz]

I have never seen a blank face GFCI that had on/off indicators. Sure, they have on/off marked next the buttons but they don't actually indicate the state of device. If you are very close to the device and know how the buttons look when set or tripped you have a good idea its state. The only indication is the reset button will stick out slightly more than normal when in the off position.

The purpose of the on/off markings is so the GFCI can be used as a controller not a disconnecting means. The disconnection means needs to clearly indicate what state its in and should not depend on the circuit being energized for it to function.

Imagine there is an issue with a motor operated piece of equipment. End use goes to panel and shuts breaker off then calls for service. Service tech shows up and pushes off button and nothing happens so figures its safe to work on equipment. While they are working on equipment someone opens panel and turns breaker back on. Service tech gets injured or killed. See how that plays out in court.

For those that disagree with this opinion, do you think the standard start/stop buttons used for motor controls meet the disconnecting means requirement?

 

[SSDriver]

I have never seen a blank face GFCI that had on/off indicators. Sure, they have on/off marked next the buttons but they don't actually indicate the state of device. If you are very close to the device and know how the buttons look when set or tripped you have a good idea its state. The only indication is the reset button will stick out slightly more than normal when in the off position.

The purpose of the on/off markings is so the GFCI can be used as a controller not a disconnecting means. The disconnection means needs to clearly indicate what state its in and should not depend on the circuit being energized for it to function.

Imagine there is an issue with a motor operated piece of equipment. End use goes to panel and shuts breaker off then calls for service. Service tech shows up and pushes off button and nothing happens so figures its safe to work on equipment. While they are working on equipment someone opens panel and turns breaker back on. Service tech gets injured or killed. See how that plays out in court.

For those that disagree with this opinion, do you think the standard start/stop buttons used for motor controls meet the disconnecting means requirement?

On the blank face GFCI I posted above the green light is on if the device has power and the green light is off if the device does not have power. It also does not need power to turn the device OFF. If you press the OFF button with the device not energized it will open the contacts.

 

[SSDriver]

I should clarify in my post above. The green light is On or Off(on the blank face GFCI) depending on if the LOAD has power and not if the device has power.

 

[curt swartz]

On the blank face GFCI I posted above the green light is on if the device has power and the green light is off if the device does not have power. It also does not need power to turn the device OFF. If you press the OFF button with the device not energized it will open the contacts.

Lights are useless if the device doesn't have power. Also how can the test button trip the device if it doesn't have power. Even if it does trip the device there is still no clear indication if the devcie is really tripped (off).

 

[SSDriver]

Lights are useless if the device doesn't have power. Also how can the test button trip the device if it doesn't have power. Even if it does trip the device there is still no clear indication if the devcie is really tripped (off).

The light does tell you if the LOAD has power or not. In your senario above you mentioned someone pressing the off button while it was de-energized. If you did that with the power off on this particular blank face GFCI it will open the contacts. See my post #38

Here is the contacts opening with no power on line side. It works the same when I have power applied to the line side.