What makes a componant electrical infastructure

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Rex Hungerford

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Electrician
First, thank you all for answering my questions today. I have been working through an idea for a while and it hit the point I have to ask questions and work this all out.

All day long I see power strips sitting on audio racks. Or on the floor. All sorts of power conditioners too. What I don't see is a power strip on the rack feed by a heavy gauge SO type cord with a 50 amp twist lock and a few circuit breakers to distribute the power to the individual duplex outlets. Basically a spider box for more permanent usage. What I started to wonder was if this device would be something that would be governed by NEC, or would it be a componant of some sort that would be covered more by some other NRTL. Does the fact that is has circuit breakers make it fall under some particular governance. Any thoughts on where I might start researching who has oversight on such an item.
 
My thoughts would be that it would be fabricated in the field and covered by the NEC or manufactured by an entity hopefully to applicable standards such as UL508 and listed and labeled by a NRTL such as UL. (It could be maufactured by a foreign entity and carry a label like C-E)
 
I was going to have Benjamin Electric produce it. He said he can do it. But I started to wonder, who would really have oversight on this sort of product. Do I have to look to someone else to bless it so to speak. We are hoping to sell hundreds of these. We want our legal team understanding what risk were getting into.
 
Certainly looks like an impressive organization. I'm sure they are far better to address your concerns than I am.
 
Few things on this:

1: What the OP is suggesting already exists in many form factors. Lex, Motion Labs, Whirlwind, and others make 19" rackmount portable distros with 50 amp CS input and various combinations of receptacles.

2: The APC type rack PDUs are listed as IT equipment and aren't supposed to be used outside that environment.

3: The UL standard for portable power distribution units is UL1640. IMO in most circumstances a panel built by a 508 shop, or a panelboard manufacturer such as Benjamin would not suffice unless listed under 1640. I *believe* a listing requirement for portable power distribution was finally added to the code perhaps someone can verify. I think field assembled would be a no.

4: Manufacturing and selling these would not likely be profitable unless you are selling thousands and already have manufacturing. Listed units from the manufacturers I mentioned, with 50 amp CS in and out, 6x 20 amp breakers, and 6x 20 amp duplex receptacles sell for $600-$700.

Here's a picture of one of the units I mentioned. I am not affiliated with any of these companies, I listed them only to help educate the OP and am in no way endorsing the product.
lex-3ru-rack-mount-power-distribution-50-amp-california-style-locking-inthru-to-duplexes.jpg
 
Rex Hungerford said:
Thank you very much. Excellent information. I'm glad I asked here.
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Sorry if my post was harsh, that was posted after a long day. I didn't mean to cut down what you're trying to do, I just wanted to let you know whats already out there and some details on making such a thing.
 
That was exactly the info I am looking for. I have a meeting with a friend today who brings office furniture to market. He might know more.
I have a very targeted market. I believe I can sell around $1,000 in the US and maybe another 2,000 in Europe. I will not enter Asia. They already saturated their market with power supplies for audio. The hardcore over there get their own dedicated utility transformers.
 
Rex Hungerford said:
That was exactly the info I am looking for. I have a meeting with a friend today who brings office furniture to market. He might know more.
I have a very targeted market. I believe I can sell around $1,000 in the US and maybe another 2,000 in Europe. I will not enter Asia. They already saturated their market with power supplies for audio. The hardcore over there get their own dedicated utility transformers.
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If your market is audiophile then you could be golden, but if its entertainment I wouldn't touch it. The established players making this stuff have the expertise and buy the components in such volume you would faint if you saw the prices they're paying for the components.
 
Todd0x1 said:
Sorry if my post was harsh, that was posted after a long day. I didn't mean to cut down what you're trying to do, I just wanted to let you know whats already out there and some details on making such a thing.
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FWIW, your answer was not received as harsh. It was very strait forward and to the point. Much like I communicate. The harsh answers are the ones where people angrily demand blind test or stats to validate you can hear a power cord. But that is the reason I have a customer base they will never have.
I have one customer who hired a local electrician to do a job. He told the electrician how it should be done. The electrician said it was overkill and wired it his own way, which "was" code legal. Yet the electrician way caused ground loops that required rewiring of the system to correct it.
My market it very finicky for a reason. We are dealing with highly sensitive equipment that is amplifying Milivolts from a tiny transformer the size of a pea. That transformer was hand wound under a microscope. Through 3 sets of additional signal boosting devices milivolts are amplified to 800 volt to 900 volts, as well as spit into DC and AC , then bucked back down to 3 to 12 volts. Its hyper revealing gear that has to be hooked up in a very specific way. Prove to me you can't hear differences in power quality when manipulating electricity that way. What I am presenting to the market is a far superior wiring method to power this gear. I have tested it on multiple systems, and every system has dramatically improved in its ability to operate as the manufacturer of the gear intended.

I a glad to see APC and other companies make a similar product. But those products are horrible performers in my market. But they show what I want to do is possible to license and distribute to North A and Europe. So thanks again for the information and example.
 
Rex Hungerford said:
which "was" code legal. Yet the electrician way caused ground loops that required rewiring of the system to correct it.
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Sorry to jump on that, but if the electrician wired it to code, even it there were "ground loops" in the EGC, they're irrelevant. If the equipment improperly uses the protective ground as a signal ground, that's not the electrician's fault; that's bad equipment design. (Likewise, if loads are L-N, why does a difference in voltage of L1-N and L2-N matter at all?)

(And if they're amplifying 1-2mv to 800v then dropping back to 12v, that engineer needs a remedial class in gain structures.)

If you can make money wiring and selling in this market, that's great, but please don't expect me to agree with most of the methods and products.
 
So what you want is a distribution panel with receptacles in a box? These can be field built or panel shops can knock them out as UL 508A. You can buy breakers that screw to the panel (panel Mount) so they can Mount directly above the plug they feed. Among others TAW in Riverside Florida sold dozens of these to the military in a 4X stainless box. They are often made in various sizes for feeding construction trailers, pump skids, welding banks. AV would be no different. In mining often the whole mine uses power centers that are just larger versions. I’ve run construction projects to build up to a dozen a year.

3 ways to “do” it. They can be done by electricians. Picture a breaker panel for a house with a bunch of receptacles attached. They can be factory built and UL stamped. I forget the exact UL names but UL has one category for “power strips” and another for distribution panels used in say construction. But prices jump from say $20 to $600. The third way is a local panel shop can build it fully customized under UL 508A. You could do 508 but there is really no advantage. The fees are much higher.
 
Voltage manipulation is how all audio works. A cartridge which holds the diamond in a record player is a tiny transformer that creates voltage as that diamond shakes back and forth in the groove of the vinyl. That diamond is tied to a tiny armature set beteeen a couple magnets and coil. It produces a tiny electrical signal. Nothing near the power required to move speaker cones. So they amplify it.
 
I got all I need and thank everyone. I'm dropping out now. Cutting edge electronics always creates arguments. I apologize for that. But I needed the broad overview of what process was required to push this foward. And I have that now. I am by no means interested in convincing anyone of anything.
Thanks again. Lots of experience here.
And thanks to Mike Holt for making the forum. I bought a pack of his continuing education yesterday. I support what he had provided for us.
 
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