What were they thinking?

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Fred B

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
What's your thoughts on this one. How dangerous is this situation. Got called about guy wanting a pool hookup. So he asked I check his main panel as this was going to be the source for the pool panel. Started looking at a 120/240 SD QO panel from around 1970, and first sight was the GEC was never attached, just laying in box. Then saw a feeder going to another panel URD with no conduit, it ran across the room where it penetrated the sil plate along with NM branch circuits. (Found out it was the barried cable going to the garage but first under the sun porch.) Top of panel has 3 sleeves for all the NM to enter and one of the sleeves has the two ungrounded conductor of the feeder the other sleeve has grounded conductor, found no ground wire with the feeder. Visual evidence of main breaker bus lug had been heating up on L2. Went to check garage entry and found the conductors exposed both inside and where the barried conductors goes into building no conduit and no ground. This is an old installation, old farmer diy.
Saw the pole xfer had all the paint gone rusted and oil staining as if leaking out of top and the red light is on. This house is only load on the transformer.
 
Fred B said:
What's your thoughts on this one. How dangerous is this situation. Got called about guy wanting a pool hookup. So he asked I check his main panel as this was going to be the source for the pool panel. Started looking at a 120/240 SD QO panel from around 1970, and first sight was the GEC was never attached, just laying in box. Then saw a feeder going to another panel URD with no conduit, it ran across the room where it penetrated the sil plate along with NM branch circuits. (Found out it was the barried cable going to the garage but first under the sun porch.) Top of panel has 3 sleeves for all the NM to enter and one of the sleeves has the two ungrounded conductor of the feeder the other sleeve has grounded conductor, found no ground wire with the feeder. Visual evidence of main breaker bus lug had been heating up on L2. Went to check garage entry and found the conductors exposed both inside and where the barried conductors goes into building no conduit and no ground. This is an old installation, old farmer diy.
Saw the pole xfer had all the paint gone rusted and oil staining as if leaking out of top and the red light is on. This house is only load on the transformer.
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What is "barried"?
 
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Fred B said:
This is an old installation, old farmer diy.
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That was my thought before reading that. And I was thinking it could get quite bad. The feeder conductors must all use the same sleeve nipple, that's a violation. The heating discolored copper is a sure sign time to change it out.

Had one I changed the panel and saw the load feeder to something had no equipment ground. Just three conductors H, H, N. I had the homeowner tie it in after I was done (litetrally). It was out to his chicken coop but good sized. Not my work.

Farmers will bring up the underground feeder and the water pipe together, soemtimes with the water in front of the panel (had that happen to me also, crazy copper water line right in front of the panel).

The pool on a new service change is doable. Definately new panel if he installed that too. Or more likely he just installed some of the pieces.
 
Little Bill said:
I knew what he meant, I was just ragging him because I've never seen buried spelt "barried".:)
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Ok you got me. But was looking for serious answer to level of concern this should be. Immediate action required? Get to it some time? Each peice of puzzle different level if urgency? No concerns at all, just minor violations with no impact in reality, don't worry about it?
 
Fred B said:
Ok you got me. But was looking for serious answer to level of concern this should be. Immediate action required? Get to it some time? Each peice of puzzle different level if urgency? No concerns at all, just minor violations with no impact in reality, don't worry about it?
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While the issues you mention should be investigated further (discolored bus connection) or corrected, I don’t see anything that would preclude the installation of a compliant, safe circuit for the pool from the main panel.

Others with more experience in this area may have other views.
 
__dan said:
That was my thought before reading that. And I was thinking it could get quite bad. The feeder conductors must all use the same sleeve nipple, that's a violation. The heating discolored copper is a sure sign time to change it out.
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Wouldn't just changing without finding cause just lead to another failure? Could missing ground connection be contributing factor? Is transformer condition a clue that system has more serious issue deserving more research?
__dan said:
The pool on a new service change is doable. Definately new panel if he installed that too. Or more likely he just installed some of the pieces.
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Nothing hooked up, just beginning stage, he has pool panel set up outside with 4 conductor cable run in to reach main service panel. Originally I just went to advise on pool construction and bonding. Guy doing work has been industrial maintenance man a lot of experience and good electrical mechanic but looks for technical guidance anytime he does. He had been doing this for decades and he is father to the new owner of property.
 
Do the owners have the financial ability to fix everything? Do they want to?
List your concerns to them, then it may be time to walk or run away, dependent on their response.

You added information. I see it’s not your baby but there are too many issues not to be addressed.
 
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ptonsparky said:
Do the owners have the financial ability to fix everything? Do they want to?
List your concerns to them, then it may be time to walk or run away, dependent on their response.
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They sound as if they are willing to get things fixed. Just priority of fixes as several are involved are at play, what level of emergency should be placed on each issue? Beyond the main breaker able to be physically turned on and off manually, is there a field test that will say the main hasn't been damaged and unsafe? Or just assume it is compromised and replace?
My gut says this whole situation is an unsafe one and all needs fixing before adding anything else, ie the pool equipment.
Not sure how far to push with the garage feeder situation that is 1. lacking a ground conductor, 2 feeders unprotected from physical damage, 3 feeder conductors fed thru seperate openings in main panel, 4. buried (@Little Bill ) :) feeders exposed and 60ft of excavation would be needed to add a ground conductor ?
 
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Fred B said:
They sound as if they are willing to get things fixed. Just priority of fixes as several are involved are at play, what level of emergency should be placed on each issue? Beyond the main breaker able to be physically turned on and off manually, is there a field test that will say the main hasn't been damaged and unsafe? Or just assume it is compromised and replace?
My gut says this whole situation is an unsafe one and all needs fixing before adding anything else, ie the pool equipment.
Not sure how far to push with the garage feeder situation that is 1. lacking a ground conductor, 2 feeders unprotected from physical damage, 3 feeder conductors fed thru seperate openings in main panel, 4. buried (@Little Bill ) :) feeders exposed and 60ft of excavation would be needed to add a ground conductor ?
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I'm a big kidder, so I hope you didn't get offended! If it weren't for spell check you couldn't read most of what I would type/write.

As far as your situation, I would advise making sure the pool panel is properly run, and most importantly the grounding and bonding of the pool via the equipotential bonding. The rest are violations with some possible danger that should be handled but not necessarily an extreme emergency. The discolored copper is most likely caused by loose connections causing a high resistance.
 
Feeder to a separate building didn't need a grounding conductor at one time and seldom was ever installed with a separate grounding conductor before code changed in I believe either 2005 or 2008.
 
Condition of transformer may or may not be because of condition of things on the premises. It could simply be undersized for the load (or former loading conditions) and still do same thing if there were no issues in premises wiring.
 
Little Bill said:
I'm a big kidder, so I hope you didn't get offended! If it weren't for spell check you couldn't read most of what I would type/write.

As far as your situation, I would advise making sure the pool panel is properly run, and most importantly the grounding and bonding of the pool via the equipotential bonding. The rest are violations with some possible danger that should be handled but not necessarily an extreme emergency. The discolored copper is most likely caused by loose connections causing a high resistance.
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No offense. Spell check never got it.
Would you move forward with pool installation without correcting the other issues? I see at least making the GEC connection a priority.
Did meter for amperage at main and feed on burned side was reading 60A while other side was 13A couldn't get onto neutral for reading. HO stated nothing on but some lights. Seems something up. Will be going back for more testing.
 
JMHO but I wouldn't touch the pool unless they agree to fix up any violations.

What happens if you do the pool and they pay you for that and then back out of fixing the rest?? Could be liability for you?? Don't know
 
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