Georgia to eliminate some GFCI requirements from 2020 NEC

[brantmacga]

From the State Codes Advisory Committee meeting yesterday,

The State Codes Advisory Committee (SCAC) has voted to amend the 2020 National Electric Code (NEC). They have amended some of the new changes in section 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel which became effective January 1st, 2021.

Stoves - Section 210.8 (A) elimination of the 250v in line 1
Dryer – Section 210.8 (A) elimination of the 250v in line 1
HVAC – Elimination of Section 210.8(F)

This action was taken due to the nuisance tripping and the supply issues associated with the expanded GFCI requirements. Until these provisions are formally adopted administratively later this year the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) may utilize the following provision in the NEC if they deem it necessary.

The Department of Community affairs has filed a notice of intent to accept the recommendations of the SCAC to be voted on in August, and to take effect 09/01/2021.

More information here:
https://www.dca.ga.gov/sites/default/files/2021_gfic_memo.pdf
https://www.dca.ga.gov/sites/default/files/2021_nec_memo_noi_synopsis_and_code_amendments.pdf

Not surprising given that the NEC CMP was already taking these amendments under consideration; they did however add the amendment for 250v dryers that was not being considered as an NEC amendment as far as I'm aware.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Hallelujah ! Hope NC does that , too .

 

[tortuga]

Oregon amended it like this:

Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, through 250-volt 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the
locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (A)(11 10) and supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150
volts or less to ground shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel

They did not adopt 210.8(A)(11)

(B) Other than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, through 250-volt 15- and 20-ampere receptacles supplied
by single-phase branch circuits rated 150-volts or less to ground, 50 amperes or less, and all receptacles supplied by
three-phase branch circuits rated 150-volts or less to ground, 100 amperes or less, installed in the locations specified
in 210.8(B)(1) through (B)(12) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

Asside from the cost issue its just less safe to have class A GFCI's on stuff like a 50A RV receptacle
As we all know if you have two class A GFCI's in series the upstream one will trip first.
So when grandma out in her RV plug's in a faulty coffee pot for her 9PM decaf, the entire RV goes dark becasue the 50A main GFCI tripped, not the kitchen GFCI.
Suddenly being in the dark causes an equal or more of a hazard for grandma.
If there was a 50ma trip on that RV receptacle then grandma's kitchen GFCI would pop and her lights would stay on.

Just about every other country uses RCD's on 220-240 volt stuff and they are not 5ma trip more like 20-30ma, relative to the amperage of the breaker.
So a 30A 240V breaker should have a 30ma GFPE trip or something like that.
Here we used to call them class B gfci's or GFPE.

 

[jap]

Oregon amended it like this:

They did not adopt 210.8(A)(11)


Asside from the cost issue its just less safe to have class A GFCI's on stuff like a 50A RV receptacle
As we all know if you have two class A GFCI's in series the upstream one will trip first.
So when grandma out in her RV plug's in a faulty coffee pot for her 9PM decaf, the entire RV goes dark becasue the 50A main GFCI tripped, not the kitchen GFCI.
Suddenly being in the dark causes an equal or more of a hazard for grandma.
If there was a 50ma trip on that RV receptacle then grandma's kitchen GFCI would pop and her lights would stay on.

Just about every other country uses RCD's on 220-240 volt stuff and they are not 5ma trip more like 20-30ma, relative to the amperage of the breaker.
So a 30A 240V breaker should have a 30ma GFPE trip or something like that.
Here we used to call them class B gfci's or GFPE.

You've just described a very dramatic scenario.

Grandma barreling down the interstate in her RV, pulling the horn cord, yelling "Get the H_ _ _ out of the way!!!! all the way to the camp ground,,,,, now there's a real hazard.

JAP>

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
As we all know if you have two class A GFCI's in series the upstream one will trip first.
...

Can you cite a source for that? Where there are two GFCIs in series, which one trips first is totally based on the sensitivity of the GFCI devices. The most sensitive one will trip first. Either one or both may trip.

 

[jim dungar]

Here we used to call them class B gfci's or GFPE.

I believe Class B GFCI were for swimming pools and have not been available for almost 40 years.

 

[kwired]

Can you cite a source for that? Where there are two GFCIs in series, which one trips first is totally based on the sensitivity of the GFCI devices. The most sensitive one will trip first. Either one or both may trip.

My observation is majority of time both end up tripping. I imagine actual amount of fault current in the incident could have some impact on this especially if current is right near that 4-6 mA threshold. If well above it likely trips both.

 

[hillbilly1]

Oregon amended it like this:

They did not adopt 210.8(A)(11)


Asside from the cost issue its just less safe to have class A GFCI's on stuff like a 50A RV receptacle
As we all know if you have two class A GFCI's in series the upstream one will trip first.
So when grandma out in her RV plug's in a faulty coffee pot for her 9PM decaf, the entire RV goes dark becasue the 50A main GFCI tripped, not the kitchen GFCI.
Suddenly being in the dark causes an equal or more of a hazard for grandma.
If there was a 50ma trip on that RV receptacle then grandma's kitchen GFCI would pop and her lights would stay on.

Just about every other country uses RCD's on 220-240 volt stuff and they are not 5ma trip more like 20-30ma, relative to the amperage of the breaker.
So a 30A 240V breaker should have a 30ma GFPE trip or something like that.
Here we used to call them class B gfci's or GFPE.

The majority of RV lights are 12 vdc, and work perfectly fine without shore power, so that isn’t really a scenario that would play out.

 

[electrofelon]

Suddenly being in the dark causes an equal or more of a hazard for grandma.
If there was a 50ma trip on that RV receptacle then grandma's kitchen GFCI would pop and her lights would stay on.

While I dont support most of these expanded GFCI requirements because of lack of evidence of problems, I dont think I buy the "lights going out is a hazard" argument..

 

[kwired]

While I dont support most of these expanded GFCI requirements because of lack of evidence of problems, I dont think I buy the "lights going out is a hazard" argument..

I think it is good design to not have GFCI take out lights as much as possible, but when your feeder needs GFCI like in the RV situation it is sort of unavoidable without battery backed up lights, which apparently most lights in RV's are on the 12VDC system anyway. I don't get into the inside wiring of those all that much so don't know what the trends are.

 

[tortuga]

Good point about the 12V, when that happened in my driveway the shore power batteries were dead so was just running off the 12V converter.
It was back before RV's were required to be GFCI but I had a used hot tub breaker so I had thrown it on the RV circuit.

Can you cite a source for that? Where there are two GFCIs in series, which one trips first is totally based on the sensitivity of the GFCI devices. The most sensitive one will trip first. Either one or both may trip.

Just based on experience in the field then
a simple experiment, I just hook up two brand new GFCI's in series and plug a tester into the second one.
First one trips every time.
I be interested to see if you got a different result.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Good point about the 12V, when that happened in my driveway the shore power batteries were dead so was just running off the 12V converter.
It was back before RV's were required to be GFCI but I had a used hot tub breaker so I had thrown it on the RV circuit.


Just based on experience in the field then
a simple experiment, I just hook up two brand new GFCI's in series and plug a tester into the second one.
First one trips every time.
I be interested to see if you got a different result.

Have seen them in series many times in the field and which one trips first is simply random based on the sensitivity of the devices.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Hallelujah ! Hope NC does that , too .

They are way ahead of you. Here is the amendment

(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (A)(11) and supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

Exception: A 250-volt receptacle installed specifically for supplying a clothes dryer, range, oven, counter-mounted cooking unit, or similar household cooking appliance fastened in place shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.

 

[brantmacga]

This change is expected to take effect on 9/1, but my local AHJ has decided to enact the amendment immediately due to the shortage in GFCI breakers.


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[hbiss]

Just based on experience in the field then
a simple experiment, I just hook up two brand new GFCI's in series and plug a tester into the second one.
First one trips every time.

Swap them and see if the results are different.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

This isn't like comparing to a fault on circuit with 20 amp breaker also taking out the 60 amp feeder breaker because of high enough available fault current. The trip threshold tolerance is much tighter for GFCI's than for magnetic trip functions.

If you have two identical GFCI's in the series, I'd expect both to trip pretty much every time. If you have different brands, types (receptacle type and circuit breaker type) you might get one to trip but not the other if the fault current is within the tolerance band of 4-6 mA. If the fault current is say 20 mA I'd bet both are tripping majority of the time if they are functioning properly.

 

[brantmacga]

An update from my local AHJ; they are saying they will require GFCI’s on a range that has a pot filler above it. This exception isn’t part of the state amendment, and making changes without going through the proper procedure isn’t allowed. I think I’m going to make a call to Atlanta on that one before they get any other ideas.


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[electrofelon]

An update from my local AHJ; they are saying they will require GFCI’s on a range that has a pot filler above it. This exception isn’t part of the state amendment, and making changes without going through the proper procedure isn’t allowed. I think I’m going to make a call to Atlanta on that one before they get any other ideas.


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[hillbilly1]

An update from my local AHJ; they are saying they will require GFCI’s on a range that has a pot filler above it. This exception isn’t part of the state amendment, and making changes without going through the proper procedure isn’t allowed. I think I’m going to make a call to Atlanta on that one before they get any other ideas.


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Usually if it has a pot filler, it will be a high end gas range, so it generally would not be a 50 amp gfi. But still…….

 

[winnie]

Can you cite a source for that? Where there are two GFCIs in series, which one trips first is totally based on the sensitivity of the GFCI devices. The most sensitive one will trip first. Either one or both may trip.

Prof. Murphy made it clear. When two GFCIs are in series, the most troublesome one will trip first