What would you have done?

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FusionElectric

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Texas
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Electrical Contractor
Firstly,
We have been a Texas Electrical Contractor for less than a year. I am also the Master on file.

Recently we were contacted by a client who asked us to replace all of the devices in a residential dwelling with AL/CU devices. "Rental Property" with no current resident.
Upon arriving the client walked me through the home and asked us to replace "specific" locations only, to which I replied "I will check it out and let you know".
The original wiring is solid strand AL.
I noticed that the sub-panel was FPE and immediately informed the home owner that I recommend changing it right away. He said No.
I personally have known this client for years and I also know him as a Penny Pincher.

My intent from this point was to replace all devices in the home<------I regret having let myself get this far.
After opening up numerous locations we discovered many instances of CU and AL improperly terminated throughout the home.
There were many locations with exclusively CU also.
Evidence of remodeling over the years.
During this time my AE had replaced devices at 4-5 locations which were exclusively AL wiring. "under my direction"
I became extremely uncomfortable with the situation in which I put myself in.
A couple hours later I finally said enough is enough. We picked up our tools and left the jobsite unwilling to energize any of the circuits we had worked on.
I contacted the client and informed him of the situation.

These were the options I gave him.
1. Replace FPE equipment and allow us to access every single location in the home to insure all dissimilar metal connections were compliant along with repairing any and all code compliance issues.
2. Complete re-wire of the home with new equipment throughout to today's NEC standards.
3. We walk away and he only pays us for the material used.

The conversation did not go well at all.
I was accused of trying to take advantage of him and that I was making something out of nothing......to which I replied that he was not allowed to have an opinion on the matter and I was not willing to continue or even energize any of the circuits we had turned off.

I have witnessed 2 homes burn from electrical fires during my career.
The first one wasn't caused by what we had done, but from what we hadn't done.
The second one was a job I refused to do after the homeowner was reluctant to take my advice.
They hired a hack and the place burned down within months.
In both cases the motivation was expense $$$$.

I don't know if this post is a confession, a warning, or just a way for me to vent.
I regret having tools turned on the job at all and I blame myself for getting us in to this position.

I certainly know more about how I am to approach situations from this day forward.....that's for sure!!!
So I ask you.
What would you have done?
 
My best advice would be to stay away from landlords and flippers altogether!
With that said, if I were to go to this job..................

I would have looked it over, and make the suggestions you mentioned about the panel and maybe, replace the Al wire. If he didn't want to do that, I would have changed what he wanted changed, and done it properly. I would have noted on my invoice the other possible dangers and that I offered to fix them but the customer refused.

You mentioned that a "hack" was hired on another job and it didn't go well. The same thing could happen on this house, so you might as well do what he asked. At least you would know it was done right. Again, I would note what he didn't want done. That way you have a record to show.

Welcome to the Forum!
 
There are landlords and there are landlords. I have owned a total of 28 units in my life. When I have hired electricians, I don't second guess them, watch over their shoulder, or delay paying when the job is done. I really don't believe I am the only one.
 
FusionElectric said:
I personally have known this client for years and I also know him as a Penny Pincher.
Click to expand...
That's usually enough for me to not even give him a quote.
But if I did, I would have given him a quote to make the whole thing right. And I wouldn't give him any halfway concessions.

I looked at a job similar to that a while back. Guy wanted new plugs and switches. I also quoted to take down all the light fixtures to correct connection issues I knew would be present, as well as corrections in the panel.

He didn't call me back, and I was ok with that
 
You got blindsided & did all you could. Next time, look further. Check for open splices in attic & crawlspace, condition of visible wiring, etc.

I made many mistakes that contributed to me losing my business but I did get smart enough to walk away from some jobs that were lose/lose.
 
I think once you start work based on an agreement or at least an understanding of the work that you're supposed to do, in this case replace some devices, that's what you agreed to do and you should go by your word. Otherwise your word doesn't mean anything.

In any case it is not your job to decide in the middle of a project that the customer is required to do additional work to satisfy you.
 
petersonra said:
I think once you start work based on an agreement or at least an understanding of the work that you're supposed to do, in this case replace some devices, that's what you agreed to do and you should go by your word. Otherwise your word doesn't mean anything.

In any case it is not your job to decide in the middle of a project that the customer is required to do additional work to satisfy you.
Click to expand...
If you stumble upon unseen issue while working on what you are doing you have every right to either have it correct so it’s safe and proper or walk away.
In this case you either document with video or pictures accompanied with writing the only ones you touched, plus the issue you found. And state that the house needs to be further looked over to be safe. Give reason why it’s dangerous to not do further work.

If you as feel that you can’t reenergize the circuit for safety issue until these unknown issue ( unseen at original walkthrough) you have every right not too. Who cares if the homeowner gets mad it’s your butt on the line.
My opinion, does not mean it’s correct we will see how long I keep my doors open
 
I wonder where the electrical inspector is in this story. As best I can tell nothing he actually agreed to do is going to make things more dangerous. If he didn't want the job he should have turned it down. None of this stuff that he's talking about is unforeseen. He certainly knew there was a zinsko box before he started work, or he should have at least.

Now he has created this big problem. The story that is going to go around is how he tried to blackmail the customer into additional work by turning off his power and then just leaving until the customer agreed to additional work. That's pretty much what happened.
 
Barbqranch said:
There are landlords and there are landlords. I have owned a total of 28 units in my life. When I have hired electricians, I don't second guess them, watch over their shoulder, or delay paying when the job is done. I really don't believe I am the only one.
Click to expand...
I didn't intentionally mean to group all people that own rentals as "landlords". I work for some and I just call them "rental property owners". The ones I work for just tell me to fix it and send the bill! In my experience, a "landlord" doesn't care about anything but his/her rental income. They don't care about the renters safety (in some cases) and certainly don't want to pay much for repairs.
 
"Fire Hazard Abatement" is my project title when code violations, smoldering connections, unlisted breakers, or poorly maintained equipment is encoutered.

Invoice reports are processed with cited code violations, time-&-date stamped photos of abated hazard, and anything beyond scope if further hazard is identified.

Here's a report to client that shows fire-bomb for 3-way switch legs, & Megger results after repair. See photos

4) Unqualified persons wiring are seen throughout attic, behind wall outlets, and by wiring entire kitchen on same fuse

5) Remodelers 15A crawl space wire on 20A breaker labeled “South Plugs” is another fuse that may burn down building

9) Existing fuse box missing Dead-Front cover. Tenants rely on breaker reset when kitchen appliances overload circuit

10) Insurance voids new-work fire hazard, and may specifically void XXX fuse box by name, see Construction Defect:

11) https://www.steinberglawfirm.com/blog/does-homeowners-insurance-cover-defective-construction/

12) Licensed C10 Electricians that pass inspections are found on Building Permit registry books at your city building Dpt.
 

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petersonra said:
I wonder where the electrical inspector is in this story. As best I can tell nothing he actually agreed to do is going to make things more dangerous. If he didn't want the job he should have turned it down. None of this stuff that he's talking about is unforeseen. He certainly knew there was a zinsko box before he started work, or he should have at least.

Now he has created this big problem. The story that is going to go around is how he tried to blackmail the customer into additional work by turning off his power and then just leaving until the customer agreed to additional work. That's pretty much what happened.
Click to expand...
I see you point, I guess it was my inexperience that made me post my original comment.
 
petersonra said:
I wonder where the electrical inspector is in this story. As best I can tell nothing he actually agreed to do is going to make things more dangerous. If he didn't want the job he should have turned it down. None of this stuff that he's talking about is unforeseen. He certainly knew there was a zinsko box before he started work, or he should have at least.

Now he has created this big problem. The story that is going to go around is how he tried to blackmail the customer into additional work by turning off his power and then just leaving until the customer agreed to additional work. That's pretty much what happened.
Click to expand...
This is almost exactly what is going through my mind. Admittedly I have created this situation.
Unfortunately the story will be whatever he would like it to be at this point. I informed him that every location we touched is either exactly how we found it or reassembled with new devices in full compliance. I also informed him that if he were to turn the circuits on that they would either be in the same state or better than before we arrived.
Plenty of regret in my decisions.
This has been a lesson.
Criticism is exactly what I was asking for when posting.

Thank You
 
AC\DC said:
If you stumble upon unseen issue while working on what you are doing you have every right to either have it correct so it’s safe and proper or walk away.
In this case you either document with video or pictures accompanied with writing the only ones you touched, plus the issue you found. And state that the house needs to be further looked over to be safe. Give reason why it’s dangerous to not do further work.

If you as feel that you can’t reenergize the circuit for safety issue until these unknown issue ( unseen at original walkthrough) you have every right not too. Who cares if the homeowner gets mad it’s your butt on the line.
My opinion, does not mean it’s correct we will see how long I keep my doors open
Click to expand...
Probably my poorest decision was not offering an inspection/advisory before agreeing to do any work. I certainly would have found the things that I’m most concerned about within 30 minutes or so. We talked about the Federal Pacific Panel before making any agreement. I told him that I recommend a swap but I can’t force him to change it and we’d document my recommendation and his decision to keep it.
Most of the other things should not have been a surprise.

I hope this thread helps someone make better decisions than I did.

Thanks
 
zbang said:
Part of the problem is that the OP was call to replace all devices and on arrival told to replace only some of them.
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This is true. I feel like there was definitely some intentional deception.

However in hindsight, the opportunity to see for myself what was likely to be needed to satisfy myself and the code was there……before I agreed to do it.

Lesson learned
 
petersonra said:
I think once you start work based on an agreement or at least an understanding of the work that you're supposed to do, in this case replace some devices, that's what you agreed to do and you should go by your word. Otherwise your word doesn't mean anything.

In any case it is not your job to decide in the middle of a project that the customer is required to do additional work to satisfy you.
Click to expand...

In hindsight to the situation I agree with you.

I do believe that there are cases when I could absolutely require or at least request more work to satisfy my standards. In this case I threw that out the window by thinking and acting out of order.
 
A formal notification to the AHJ is probably in order. You can't prevent being followed by a lowballing hack, but maybe you can prevent a tragedy.

I don't know Texas law, but rental properties are often required to be inspected periodically, and/or before a new tenant moves in. There's probably someone other than the usual electrical inspector involved; someone who does rental units.
 
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