60 Amp Receptacle?

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dafish

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For EVSA use, on a dedicated circuit, I see no code that prohibits use of a 60 amp receptacle. Mind you I know little-to-nothing, so feel free to correct me.

The thinking is to install a NEMA flush 14-60r in the ceiling. This would mean wiring to the box, even the receptacle, would support up to 48A continuous. All I could ask, even though EVSA's seem to not come with male plugs over 40 amps. Still, I could run to 40 amps or remove the receptacle and hard-wire in 48 amps.

Q1) Is there some code against this?
Q2) Rather than cut an end of an EVSA, I was thinking have a 14-60P to 14-50r plug adapter made, and go from there. Is there any code or stigma against using such an adapter (assuming amperage/connectors/wire gauge is accounted for).

As always, Thanks!

-d
 
Is there some reason you don’t want to supply a branch circuit that matches the EVSE manufacturer’s instructions?

50A and larger equipment is almost always designed to be hard-wired.

Depending on your code cycle, using a receptacle might invoke a GFCI requirement that you may be unable to comply with.
 
Retiresd:

Yes. There wasn't 240 in the garage, so I'm having him install a new sub-panel and having as much work done as possible that's forward thinking. This means installing runs that can deliver 48 amps even though today it's not needed.

I'm just starting to see some EVSE products claim to not work with GFCI. Might be trouble. Still, it's not like I'd have him resist hard-wiring in a 48 port when the time game. But we still want to run the right wire, buy the right breaker, and use the much smaller plug in EVSE that ships with the car today. For now anyway.
 
Have him run wiring capable of 60A, but for now install a 50A breaker (GFCI if required) and 14-50 receptacle. That will cover any 40A EVSE on the market including the one included with the car. Upgradable to a 48A EVSE if and when required.

If you are looking at a cord and plug connected EVSE that the instructions say not to use with GFCI, I’d almost bet it’s not listed. Beware!

Do you know the make & model of the car yet?
 
Yes, I think I'll ask for exactly that. My son wants to future proof decisions, but for this I think we'll just make is simple.

EVSE selection: We'll use the Mopar supplied EVSE at first, then upgrade to a 48 amp Chargepoint or Juicebox (TBD) if charging times become an issue.

Pacifica. 32 amp max, ships with 12a. Once a PHEV 1/2 ton is available, be it f150 or Tunrda, it's next.

Thanks,
-d
 
Uh? EGC, bonding, proper termination, things of that ilk I'd expected the electrician to have as part of his basic skill set. This exercise has been because I don't see a lot of knowledge about EV in this area, and because some folks don't understand strategic thinking in sizing things. But it had never crossed my mind there could even be confusion on grounding, bonding, proper termination, etc. I guess I was leaving him to his craft. Have I made another mistake?

1) I'd assumed electrician would provide ground as needed for the capacity of the sub-panel. Is this wrong?
2) Do I instead need to outline the potential capacity of GFCI's that may be installed vs potential hard-wired?
3) If not, what do I need to tell him such that he knows enough about how it might get used that it's grounded correctly/safely?

In case I do need to quantify, let me say again the sub-panel is being designed/installed to support more that just the first simple PHEV (A Pacifica PHEV). An E-Ray is coming, as is a either a PHEV or EV F-150. Too much is unclear there, and in fact I'm making many power assumptions.

1639641263029.png

So Stall #1 requires wiring capacity to 60 amps and may require a GFCI. I'd prefer to do that on one install.
Stall #2 may see capacity to 80 amps and may require GFCI as an interim. That's getting put off, but worst case GFCI wise is another NEMA 15-50 AND a hard-wired 80 amp (of which neither would be used at once) both going to stall #2.

Thanks!

-d
 
dafish said:
For EVSA use, on a dedicated circuit, I see no code that prohibits use of a 60 amp receptacle. Mind you I know little-to-nothing, so feel free to correct me.

The thinking is to install a NEMA flush 14-60r in the ceiling. This would mean wiring to the box, even the receptacle, would support up to 48A continuous. All I could ask, even though EVSA's seem to not come with male plugs over 40 amps. Still, I could run to 40 amps or remove the receptacle and hard-wire in 48 amps.

Q1) Is there some code against this?
Q2) Rather than cut an end of an EVSA, I was thinking have a 14-60P to 14-50r plug adapter made, and go from there. Is there any code or stigma against using such an adapter (assuming amperage/connectors/wire gauge is accounted for).

As always, Thanks!

-d
Click to expand...
Everyone else commenting on amperage but I have a different question.
Why the ceiling? Don't make sense. Also in ceiling would, in application of cordage dropping down to plug into vehicle, need to be a twist lock style to prevent inadvertent disconnect not the simple14-60. (Found no twist lock in the 14-60 style) Weight of cord alone would be enough to be at risk of coming undone, and becoming seperated and falling out or worse yet not falling out and becoming a source of arcing, heating up and fire.
Nothing wrong in oversizing wire in anticipation of larger future load so long as the receptacle and breaker terminations will accept the wire size. Breaker needs to be sized to the lowest rated peice, such as the 14-50 adapter you mention.
 
So your worst case is 48A EVSE plus 80A EVSE plus another 20A branch circuit? In that case you'd want a 200A subpanel, a 4/0 Al feeder at 180A should suffice for the loads, though.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
So your worst case is 48A EVSE plus 80A EVSE plus another 20A branch circuit? In that case you'd want a 200A subpanel, a 4/0 Al feeder at 180A should suffice for the loads, though.

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...

I think it’s a rare case where more than one EVSE is really needed in the garage of a single family residence. The homeowner may think they need two or simply want two, but the reality is that there will almost never be the case that necessitates charging both EVs at the same time. The average EV owner who charges at home does so about once per week.
 
Well, in this case, with 3 future EVs, and one of them supporting V2H (via details not yet released, to my knowledge), 2 EVSEs makes some sense.

Cheers, Wayne
 
My apologies for being away for a few days there. some answers:

Why the ceiling:
Cause he's married and he and I both know what will happen if we don't get some kind of retractor setup keeping the cord off the ground. To say nothing of keeping it away from kids (I assume it's electrically safe, but the physical abuse is another discussion)

Cars to be supported:
3. One today, at least two more as cars change over. He's two attached garages, one is a 2 1/2 car, the other is a "Wow, really? F you" sized garage.

Panel size:
Yea, 2/0 SER is, at least here, rare and expensive. You can trip on 4/0 SER almost anywhere, and it's roughly the same cost. So screw it, I've already told electrician "A" I'd like to see the materials quote for 200a panel on 4/0. I'm always on the jobsite, and we don't ever require labor quotes. I ask for rough order or magnitude, but I prefer to pay T&M. I'd rather pay more if I need more to do it right, less if it goes smoothlly, and always know my service guy always made his money.

At this moment it appears like my son still wants to pull wire and breaker for 60 amp (48a EVSE) but the more I look at this the more I feel like a 50 amp circuit meets 80% of the want and 95% of the need.

Whatever, with 200a we're going to install a 14-50 outside to support visitors/family.

Locking receptacles:
I like them myself, but I believe I've read some code (don't remember) does not allow locking receptacles for EV use. Not sure why. However, I'm certain I can find a way to strain relief said plug, so NBD. I'll look tagain hough, as I've always been a fan of them. Used them a lot in datacenter projects, etc..
 
dafish said:
I like them myself, but I believe I've read some code (don't remember) does not allow locking receptacles for EV use. Not sure why.
Click to expand...
Probably for the same reason gas stations have break-away couplings on fuel hoses.
 
I can't find that reference again, but all the l14's I have floating around are 30's. It seem like there is no l14-50, so it's either an L6-50 and three wire or no locking and 4 wire in the 14-50. Always something. Meh. 14-50 it is.

Thanks ya'll!
 
Found it: 2020 NEC 625.44 requires nonlocking receptacles.

Mind you I see I'm governed by NEC 2008 code, so...
 
dafish said:
Found it: 2020 NEC 625.44 requires nonlocking receptacles.

Mind you I see I'm governed by NEC 2008 code, so...
Click to expand...
2008? So note some workarounds made available in later versions are not available to the 2008.
Also if locking receptacle and plug is prohibited, a ceiling mount receptacle will likely be a point of failure. Consideration of direct wire to cord w/strain relief seems would be a safer option, not aware of a cord recoil for a 60 or 50 amp cord.
 
Fred B said:
2008? So note some workarounds made available in later versions are not available to the 2008.
Also if locking receptacle and plug is prohibited, a ceiling mount receptacle will likely be a point of failure. Consideration of direct wire to cord w/strain relief seems would be a safer option, not aware of a cord recoil for a 60 or 50 amp cord.
Click to expand...

I’ve seen festoon systems designed for EV cables. I’m too lazy to search for it, but I’m sure Mr. Google could find it.

I wouldn’t want a recoil system for such a continuous load unless there was an interlock to prevent use until fully extended.
 
dafish said:
Retiresd:

Yes. There wasn't 240 in the garage, so I'm having him install a new sub-panel and having as much work done as possible that's forward thinking. This means installing runs that can deliver 48 amps even though today it's not needed.

I'm just starting to see some EVSE products claim to not work with GFCI. Might be trouble. Still, it's not like I'd have him resist hard-wiring in a 48 port when the time game. But we still want to run the right wire, buy the right breaker, and use the much smaller plug in EVSE that ships with the car today. For now anyway.
Click to expand...
The Tesla level 3 wall charger advises against installing Gfci protection because it is already built in to the unit
 
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