Who Does This ?

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goldstar

goldstar

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New Jersey
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Electrical Contractor
I was replacing 2-prong receptacles in an OLD house recently and found many that were wired on the terminals with a loop in the wire as shown in the attached file. Were electricians and apprentices taught this years ago or was this a HO thing ? I'll have to put this in my "annoying" folder along with the guys that tape wire nuts in a light fixture :cool:
 

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I've never done it and never instructed any one to do it. In fact, it might be detrimental as far as you lose a couple threads to tighten the screw,
 
A good hook-J is done all the time. A coil-loop not so much.
Looks like someone was thinking of pull-out issue. It is true, heat cycles can loosen screws, so w/o at least a J the wire could come off the yoke.
The screws that are knurled under the head are best.
 
goldstar said:
I was replacing 2-prong receptacles in an OLD house recently and found many that were wired on the terminals with a loop in the wire as shown in the attached file. Were electricians and apprentices taught this years ago or was this a HO thing ? I'll have to put this in my "annoying" folder along with the guys that tape wire nuts in a light fixture :cool:
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maybe johnny home owner stripped too much of the insulation. I tape ALL pressure connectors. [ no such thing in NEC as a wire nut. ]. Worked in a slaughterhouse years ago where water and vibration was a problem. Had connections that were well taped still operating while in a few inches of water. Always leave a tab & quality made in USA electrical tape. Several times I saw where an old work box with handy bars short out while somebody was removing an energised device. Never happens if it had a few wraps of tape.
 
You see all kinds of regional practices, and some practices that were common at one time but are no longer so common.

I sometimes see outlets and light switches wrapped in black tape.
 
garbo said:
maybe johnny home owner stripped too much of the insulation. I tape ALL pressure connectors. [ no such thing in NEC as a wire nut. ]. Worked in a slaughterhouse years ago where water and vibration was a problem. Had connections that were well taped still operating while in a few inches of water. Always leave a tab & quality made in USA electrical tape. Several times I saw where an old work box with handy bars short out while somebody was removing an energised device. Never happens if it had a few wraps of tape.
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Actually a wire nut is a pressure connector. As you turn it the screw threads inside tighten down on the wire.
 
garbo said:
vibration was a problem.
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People who have not seen what years of vibration can sometimes do to wire nuts, just do not get it.

Can't tell you how many wire nuts I have found that failed over the years, apparently due to vibration. Got to be a dozen or more.

There might have been 5000 wire nuts on those machines, but the dozen that eventually failed caused loss of production that far exceeded whatever initial savings there was by people using them and not taping them up.

I actually found one in a junction box where for some reason when they installed it the electricians brought the wires into the junction box, than added about a 6 inch length of wire to the terminals there and wire nutted them together. No idea why they would do that and not just wire direct to the terminals.
 
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petersonra said:
People who have not seen what years of vibration can sometimes do to wire nuts, just do not get it.

Can't tell you how many wire nuts I have found that failed over the years, apparently due to vibration. Got to be a dozen or more.

There might have been 5000 wire nuts on those machines, but the dozen that eventually failed caused loss of production that far exceeded whatever initial savings there was by people using them and not taping them up.

I actually found one in a junction box where for some reason when they installed it the electricians brought the wires into the junction box, than added about a 6 inch length of wire to the terminals there and wire nutted them together. No idea why they would do that and not just wire direct to the terminals.
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Industrial is a total different animal. Vibration is not an issue in most commercial installations.
 
You can see that the screw head grabs a double thickness of wire on one side and a single thickness of wire on the other. Pressure will tilt the screw head quite a bit and weaken the overall assembly. You can bend the screw but never get it tight.

All the extra work negates the planned result. The guy who did it was obviously thinking that if he could perform superior work (he would not get hassled about not having the license). He consciously tried to put more work in and achieve something that demonstrated adequate work (he tried to compete with an experienced pro).

Never saw exactly that but saw something I would put in the same category. Met a really interesting guy was buying and fixing up Main St properties in the middle of nowhere. Actually it was Punxsutawney, Pa., the place with the beaver that tells you when Spring is coming. He had done all this work himself, the restaurant bar next door and the office lease space to the credit company. He could not wait to tell me how he got trapped there and () the town. I wanted to see the famous gopher but he said not to.

He had installed the new computer outlets for the credit office. I was there installing the cat 5, travelling with many sites to do. Usually we would do the power also and I knew their spec., isolated ground with an Earth ground requirement. I installed a lot of 12/2 MC for them and would repair the main service ground as necessary. Usually they were in strip mall storefronts.

He had an old brick mill building with new sheetrock for the new credit office tenant. He had run 12/3 MC for the outlet and two cables per 3 x 2 box for the feed through (not deep boxes either irrc)(!). I saw that and was super impressed he could get that all in the box and it still looked semipro.

Then I met him when he came in to do more work in the evening. I already knew his trade labor was at the gifted level, but then he told me how he had done everything to both buildings, hand stacking quite a few reclaimed brick. He gave me a tour of the bar restaurant next door and I diagnosed why the radiant floor heat did not work (fixed temp mixing valve instead of outdoor air temp hot water reset control).

I was sure my dinner was free after that but I had to pay for the fried chicken something. He had built beyond what he could afford and lost his wife in the process, could not escape from his spot in the town. His work was excellent, that's what he planned to do with the radiant heat. He had done what he wanted to do but just not achieved the planned result.

The guy who did that is / was, an artiste.
 
augie47 said:
Never saw it.
but....
I do tape wirenuts in light fixtures :)
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Thankfully you're in Tennessee and you're not the one I cuss out weekly. :)

Years ago, when the wire nuts were made of a ceramic type material I could understand that taping them was an assurance that they wouldn't fall off. The American made wire nuts of today (if installed properly) genarally won't come off in a light fixture. However, I can understand taping them in a motor that generally vibrates.
 
__dan said:
You can see that the screw head grabs a double thickness of wire on one side and a single thickness of wire on the other. Pressure will tilt the screw head quite a bit and weaken the overall assembly. You can bend the screw but never get it tight.
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This. because the wire is not ground flat on the bottom and top of the coil, the screw torques down uneven. But in same sense, if you don't make a good J-hook, or just put straight wire in under screw head, then you have same issue.

For slow quality job I J-hook and then pinch wire to make a lasso (like letter d) under screw head.
 
FionaZuppa said:
This. because the wire is not ground flat on the bottom and top of the coil, the screw torques down uneven. But in same sense, if you don't make a good J-hook, or just put straight wire in under screw head, then you have same issue.

For slow quality job I J-hook and then pinch wire to make a lasso (like letter d) under screw head.
Click to expand...
sometimes you just need to make the J hook and the screw will pull into a d when you tighten.
 
kwired said:
sometimes you just need to make the J hook and the screw will pull into a d when you tighten.
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Exactly, that's what I do. The only time I will crimp the J hook is with stranded wire, #12 or #14 under the screw. I put a heavy twist on the wire then J hook. Usually I will form the crimp with a screwdriver, pinning one end and pulling on the wire around the screw. I never crimp solid wire, turning the screw does that.

I like the back wired screw plate terminals for stranded wire, if I can get them.

There was one time I saw a basement with double the normal knob and tube wiring, small house. It was obvious the guy or the crew was new, by how much extra wire they put in, but it was also a marvel in how neat and straight they took the time (and skill) to make it. You could tell they were astistes even if they were new at it and would not be making a living doing it.
 
petersonra said:
People who have not seen what years of vibration can sometimes do to wire nuts, just do not get it.

Can't tell you how many wire nuts I have found that failed over the years, apparently due to vibration. Got to be a dozen or more.

There might have been 5000 wire nuts on those machines, but the dozen that eventually failed caused loss of production that far exceeded whatever initial savings there was by people using them and not taping them up.

I actually found one in a junction box where for some reason when they installed it the electricians brought the wires into the junction box, than added about a 6 inch length of wire to the terminals there and wire nutted them together. No idea why they would do that and not just wire direct to the terminals.
Click to expand...
I started out at a large slaughterhouse that had a lot of vibrating machinery including crushers, hammer mills, huge cookers, shakers , vibrating screens for water pollution etc. You had to apply several layers of quality tape on every pressure connector ( yes wire nut ) or else they would come loose. Even had to watch splices inside of motor pecker heads. We installed at least a dozen layers of scotch cambric tape followed by lots of black tape. On a few high vibration crushers we had to install dozen wraps if silicone or rubber tape between the cambric & black tape due to vibration cutting into bugs. On motors above 25 HP usually used grade 5 bolts along with flat washers and quality lock washers to prevent loosening. Never reused lick washers on motors. Tape also keep things working because so many boxes had water in them due to nightly cleaning with high pressure washers. Finally went around and drilled a 1/8 to 3/16" holes in bottom of at least 40 start stop buttons to allow water to drain out.
 
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